Gary Blues Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Everything that can be said has been, as far as I can see, from Div and Sid. However, it is probably worth adding that any loans that are taken on (most of the money from the Scottish Investment Fund is loan money as far as I'm aware) are loans to the CiC, not loans to St Mirren and therefore the club would remain debt-free. That is also my understanding - which is why I've been baffled as to why people are concerned with regards to debt. The debt will have nothing to do with St. Mirren FC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Agreed. The main problem that any new owner is going to have is managing expectation. The St.Mirren support are a demanding lot, me included. We want the club to be successful and to be brutally honest if you are totally objective about it we ARE being successful, it just doesn't really feel like it when we seem to have been stuck in a permanent relegation battle for nearly 5 years now ! The cup runs aside, it's been pretty miserable being a Saints fan since we got promoted again, and I think we all hoped that the move to the new stadium, the removal of the debt and the creation of Ralston would signal a new dawn and a move upwards towards at least challenging for the top six every now and again. That hasn't happened, and we seem to be somewhat stuck in a rut. The new owners aren't going to come in and start splashing money about, it will be very much the status quo as the club will need to stick to it's budget, no matter how boring and frustrating that may be. That budget is one of the lowest in the SPL. Of course that in itself doesn't mean we need to be resigned to continually finish in a league position that is on par with our budget, but generally speaking that IS how the league pans out. It's no surprise that Hearts and the Old Firm occupy the top three positions as they have by far and away the biggest of all the budgets in the league. What we need to do is emulate the likes of Inverness, Kilmarnock and St.Johnstone who are all currently doing much better than we are with similar budgets. I have to agree with all of the above, I think the one mistake Danny made when he was appointed was in the managing expectation bit. He made some believe that he could take us to the next level. I honestly believe that the BOD have no option other than to continue with the policy of trying to find young talent. The problem is that we do not have any talent good enough and when we find it they are gone, Broadfoot, McGinn, Lappin for example. We appear to fall down by not offerering youngsters long contracts so that we can sell them on. Recently we have offered McLean and Barron long contracts which is encouraging. I do hope that the club changes owner soon, I believe that the current BOD done a fantastic job in managing the club through a crisis where we nearly went bust. However I believe that we need fresh ideas from a BOD who are focused on taking us to the next level. I believe that our current BOD still have the scars from having managed us through a crisis and are so focused on making sure we do not go bust that they are not willing to take any decision that involves any risk. This has resulted in us being stuck in the rut that Div refers to. If only we were allowed to bring in 1 or 2 quality players, what a lift that would give the whole place. Who knows it could generate a bit of money with increased crowds and a big sell on fee, however as stated above this involves risk. Edited February 8, 2011 by Kendo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamhammer Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Agreed. The main problem that any new owner is going to have is managing expectation. The St.Mirren support are a demanding lot, me included. We want the club to be successful and to be brutally honest if you are totally objective about it we ARE being successful, it just doesn't really feel like it when we seem to have been stuck in a permanent relegation battle for nearly 5 years now ! The cup runs aside, it's been pretty miserable being a Saints fan since we got promoted again, and I think we all hoped that the move to the new stadium, the removal of the debt and the creation of Ralston would signal a new dawn and a move upwards towards at least challenging for the top six every now and again. That hasn't happened, and we seem to be somewhat stuck in a rut. The new owners aren't going to come in and start splashing money about, it will be very much the status quo as the club will need to stick to it's budget, no matter how boring and frustrating that may be. That budget is one of the lowest in the SPL. Of course that in itself doesn't mean we need to be resigned to continually finish in a league position that is on par with our budget, but generally speaking that IS how the league pans out. It's no surprise that Hearts and the Old Firm occupy the top three positions as they have by far and away the biggest of all the budgets in the league. What we need to do is emulate the likes of Inverness, Kilmarnock and St.Johnstone who are all currently doing much better than we are with similar budgets. Am I really missing the point here as I always thought that any new owners would be people who had actually bought the majority of shares, in this case 52%. My worry in this case is that the club will be ran by people with no investment in its success or failure, either in terms of finance or even as supporters. Edited February 8, 2011 by Iamhammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Am I really missing the point here as I always thought that any new owners would be people who had actually bought the majority of shares, in this case 52%. My worry in this case is that the club will be ran by people with no investment in its success or failure, either in terms of finance or even as supporters. You are right, whoever buys the 52% shareholding that is up for grabs will be "the new owner". The aim is that the "new owner" will be a community interest company which is made up of St.Mirren supporters, business partners and community partners. I think ! The general premise here is that the club actually becomes owned by it's supporters rather than any single private individual(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 That is also my understanding - which is why I've been baffled as to why people are concerned with regards to debt. The debt will have nothing to do with St. Mirren FC. Not entirely true, but then I'm not even sure a CIC can take on loans or even get itself in to debt. I've dealt with provident societies before, really need to read up on CIC's. Back to the debt though, Southampton were docked points when their owning company went in to administration and just through association with the CIC it must certainly be possible that would be the same for Saint Mirren. The paying full wack for the shares is, again, something that hit Ebbsfleet United. Luckily I don't think there are any side deals with third parties, for example a leisure company looking after the training complex, to further muddy the waters. At EUFC it was a case of "thanks for the £1.2 million, now what will you do?" - very little thanks for saving the club, which I suppose is mirrored by our current state in a way. Fans will need to look at this with new eyes so to speak, with everything being done with as much transparency as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 The whole thing just does not stack up for me. It all appears too good to be true. In a nice fluffy world the concept is perfect. However we are in the middle of the worst global financial situation since the 1930’s where both hard cash and time are major commodities. Yet it is being promoted as the saviour of our club. (Why have other larger clubs not tried it). In my experience there is no such thing as a “soft loan”. All loans or grants come with conditions whether it is in security or performance related conditions. The “soft loans” probably come with c covenants that can be called in if and when they are breached. (so what are the risks and who carries that risk. There is no such thing as FREE money, if there was we would all be rich) I kind of get the CiC thing and tapping into community loans and grants etc. However the fatal flaw is that 48% of the club will still be owned by Private investors who stand to make a profit should the initiative become a success. Surely this will prejudice the opportunity of getting these “soft loans” over other organisations that are wholly community initiatives. What happens if the CiC get a loan/grant over another more deserving organisation. The press will have a field day. The involvement of the Maxi guys is very commendable particularly when neither of them, from what I have heard, are “locals” or St Mirren fans. However the question that keeps going around my head what is in it for them, what is their angle. Are they charging a management fee, promoting associated businesses, looking for a knighthood its got to be something, so what is it. The proposed changes that have been muted over the period such as bars, CiC memberships, the Soft Loan administration and the merchandising changes will all require investment in order to see a return. Who is paying for this and how is the profit split from each initiative, is it the club. If it is the club who pays if it’s a disaster, if it’s a success do the remaining 48% of shareholders get a dividend. At the moment there are a lot more questions than answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 div, would it be possible to have a thread on here where people pose questions and the potential owners either come on and answer them, or you forward the questions to them and they send back answers for you to post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 div, would it be possible to have a thread on here where people pose questions and the potential owners either come on and answer them, or you forward the questions to them and they send back answers for you to post? Stu, these guys at the critical end of the process at the moment. As I said above a thread of this nature is unhelpful as it was always going to generate hysterical speculation, which is exactly what we have got. A Q&A on the forum would be a waste of time and would only lead to every man and his care in the community allocated dug weighing in with all sorts of emotive bollox - not to mention trouble makers from other clubs jumping in to add their flavour of shite stirring. This thread has already run up a few pages over a few hours and all that has come out of it is more wild speculation. The last thing the key players at our club should be wasting their time on at this point in time is Internet flamers. There are two process running in parallel and it is clear from the posts that there is a very limited understanding of either process from those trying to demonstrate their "expertise". The BoD will release information as and when it is appropriate. Wild speculation or half understood facts could damage the process. The best thing the support can do at the moment is be supportive and let them get on with it. There are no negatives in relation to the CIC status. There are shedloads of positives. A live Q&A for genuinely concerned supporters might be appropriate, but I would rather the BoD focus on making it happen and we trust them to get on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Stu, these guys at the critical end of the process at the moment. As I said above a thread of this nature is unhelpful as it was always going to generate hysterical speculation, which is exactly what we have got. A Q&A on the forum would be a waste of time and would only lead to every man and his care in the community allocated dug weighing in with all sorts of emotive bollox - not to mention trouble makers from other clubs jumping in to add their flavour of shite stirring. This thread has already run up a few pages over a few hours and all that has come out of it is more wild speculation. The last thing the key players at our club should be wasting their time on at this point in time is Internet flamers. There are two process running in parallel and it is clear from the posts that there is a very limited understanding of either process from those trying to demonstrate their "expertise". The BoD will release information as and when it is appropriate. Wild speculation or half understood facts could damage the process. The best thing the support can do at the moment is be supportive and let them get on with it. There are no negatives in relation to the CIC status. There are shedloads of positives. A live Q&A for genuinely concerned supporters might be appropriate, but I would rather the BoD focus on making it happen and we trust them to get on with it. TSUMirren thankfully seems to have a good idea how CIC actually works so I hope he gets the chance to meet Mr Atkinson and comes back with his thoughts. That way we don't need to hear the finer details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 TSUMirren thankfully seems to have a good idea how CIC actually works so I hope he gets the chance to meet Mr Atkinson and comes back with his thoughts. That way we don't need to hear the finer details No pressure then Tsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I'd be very happy to host a question and answer session or forum here on the site, that would not be a problem, however I am sure Richard or Stewart or whoever would tell me that there are certain aspects of the deal/sale that remain at a delicate stage and that aren't really suitable for publication on the web. I know Richard has addressed SMiSA and also did something at the AGM, and has met with other supporters groups like the Supras too so there have been attempts made to explain what is going on and what would happen if the deal went through. I will ask however and see what can be done regarding either online Q&A or supporters forum etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 No pressure then Tsu Certainly less pressure than my mate Kevin's baws felt when he caught one in the nads during the 5 a side tournament under the Caley Stand. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Certainly less pressure than my mate Kevin's baws felt when he caught one in the nads during the 5 a side tournament under the Caley Stand. haha Sorry I am not trying to make you the fans spoke person. With your knowledge it would be good to hear your thoughts after speaking to Mr Atkinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Certainly less pressure than my mate Kevin's baws felt when he caught one in the nads during the 5 a side tournament under the Caley Stand. haha Ouch....I remember that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Did a bit of reading about CIC's - have to say I'm a bit sceptical as to how it's gonna benefit the club. Source Being a CIC will not confer any special tax status as such. CICs will generally be in the same position as any other organisation in obtaining any tax concessions otherwise available, for example due to their type of activity or location. You should make sure you understand the tax consequences for your organisation of becoming a CIC. This is particularly so for organisations with wholly charitable purposes where the benefits of lighter CIC regulation may be outweighed by the tax benefits of being a charity. If in doubt get professional advice. Being a CIC will not confer any automatic right to grants or other special funding although the nature of your activities or location may do so. Edited February 8, 2011 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 "If in doubt get professional advice." I'm sure they would have did this and will know what the script is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) "If in doubt get professional advice." I'm sure they would have did this and will know what the script is. Just replying to a point made earlier in the thread. A CiC can attract grants and gets breaks in terms of the tax it pays, I was under the impression he had got his information from the horse's mouth. Edited February 8, 2011 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Did a bit of reading about CIC's - have to say I'm a bit sceptical as to how it's gonna benefit the club. Source Don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure what your point is here... The CiC idea isn't fox tax reasons, there is no benefit in that way as there wouldn't be for any company. It is about a whole host of other benefits that would be good for the club. Things like a CiC being asset-tied, being able to apply for grants/SIF loans, being member-owned/led. There is no automatic right to loans/grants, no - but there isn't automatic rights to just about anything for any company. However, if it wasn't a CiC then the thing wouldn't work as a standard company can't apply for SIF loans/grants. The whole reason the thing is taking so long is that the CiC folks (Richard Atkinson etc) are putting in all the effort and working closely with SIF to ensure that everything is in place to secure the loans to but the shares. Div, Sid and, to some extent, I have tried to explain it as much as can be. People should read over what has been written as all this half-knowledge is just clouding the matter and bring a whole lot of confusion...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I trust Mr Gilmour has done a process of due diligence on the Maxi Group and the new directors, and also on the process of setting up a CIC. Otherwise his work of putting us on a sound financial footing would be undone in the stroke of a pen. I'm not best pleased we had to lose our stadium under his leadership while others such as Motherwell have got off scot free, but SG has always had the best interests of St Mirren at heart. That said, once again Sid just proves he only posts on here to incite other supporters. I'll take the bait. What a ridiculous suggestion that discussing the issue and demanding answers at what sounds like a critical point in the deal is harmful. Imagine we had done the same as Reg Brealey planned his takeover. An online Q&A would be most helpful. If this plan was to go ahead, and the club were to look to supporters for investment, it is likely that St Mirren fans living away from Paisley would invest the same as or more than those still based at home. How many of us are in the position to go to one of these SMiSA or shareholder only events? As others have said, the plans looked good on paper but could be a total failure in practice. Would the local population really be so motivated to put their money in to the club? I have my doubts. I also have major doubts about using a system that does not seem to have ever worked anywhere else. Or are we trying to become the next Barcelona? At present it looks like a couple of guys want to run a football club, without needing to put their own money in. I look forward to receiving more information on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure what your point is here... The CiC idea isn't fox tax reasons, there is no benefit in that way as there wouldn't be for any company. It is about a whole host of other benefits that would be good for the club. Things like a CiC being asset-tied, being able to apply for grants/SIF loans, being member-owned/led. There is no automatic right to loans/grants, no - but there isn't automatic rights to just about anything for any company. However, if it wasn't a CiC then the thing wouldn't work as a standard company can't apply for SIF loans/grants. The whole reason the thing is taking so long is that the CiC folks (Richard Atkinson etc) are putting in all the effort and working closely with SIF to ensure that everything is in place to secure the loans to but the shares. Div, Sid and, to some extent, I have tried to explain it as much as can be. People should read over what has been written as all this half-knowledge is just clouding the matter and bring a whole lot of confusion...! Like I said it had already been claimed (by Div) that there were tax benefits in becoming a CiC - if you knew this wasn't the case why didn't you say? In fact I'll go further and say why did you make the following quote if you knew it to be wrong? Everything that can be said has been, as far as I can see, from Div and Sid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Like I said it had already been claimed (by Div) that there were tax benefits in becoming a CiC - if you knew this wasn't the case why didn't you say? In fact I'll go further and say why did you make the following quote if you knew it to be wrong? I musta missed or skimmed the bit where Div wrote that. Tax, to my knowledge, isn't a benefit of a CiC. But there are many others ***edited to say, from the recesses of my mind (and I'll check up later) there may be advantages in terms of tax breaks due to some of the activity that the company may be involved in that the club, as a football club, wouldn't be. Community projects, funding things etc... That of course if a difference thing from tax status or exemption. Edited February 8, 2011 by ktf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I musta missed or skimmed the bit where Div wrote that. Tax, to my knowledge, isn't a benefit of a CiC. But there are many others Fairy nuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Like I said it had already been claimed (by Div) that there were tax benefits in becoming a CiC - if you knew this wasn't the case why didn't you say? In fact I'll go further and say why did you make the following quote if you knew it to be wrong? This is exactly the reason I don't think a thread speculating on what is going on is helpful. A CIC does not confer charity status it sits somewhere in between. Being a registered charity does deliver tax breaks; however the tax breaks are replaced by a massive admin overhead - that was my understanding of it when I looked into setting up a charity / CIC for a community project I set up in Elderslie. If you are deserate for information just google CIC or pop into the volunteer centre in Silk Street who will bore you to tears on the subject of CIC versus charity status. Div whilst trying to be helpful to negative stoopit posters ends up getting pilloried for not knowing the ins and outs. Kemp then posts a desperately childish rant attacking me for recommending that we avoid getting into this on a public forum - proving my point - and if it has wound him up that's a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Please f**k off and give us all peace you attention seeking wanker. Judging by this you are no doubt a person of great intelligence. Your talents are clearly wasted on here. Perhaps you could manage a football club. I am glad I started what has turned into a worthwhile discussion (mainly). All this could be put to rest if Mr. Atkinson could tell us in detail the way he intends to raise the money. Which fund is it coming from and what is the mix of loan and debt. Please don't try to say its all a bit sensitive at the moment - this has been on the go for many months now. Remember that this appears to be public money being used to buy shares in a private company. All he has to do is read through this thread and answer the questions posed. My work here is done. Goodbye and goodnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray7 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 My work here is done. Goodbye and goodnight. Thank phuck for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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