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US Based Bidder Revealed


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I'm not against any bid for the club, I don't know enough about the "American bid" to comment on it to be honest. If the sellers think it's a better deal for the football club and choose to sell to those guys then fair enough.

My preference remains for the club to be owned by the fans, and for the assets belonging to the club to be locked. The only bid that delivers that at the moment is 10000Hours.

We could all argue at the finer points of 10000Hours all day, in fact we have done to the point where everyone is thoroughly bored by it, but the fact remains that it remains a bid aimed at safeguarding the long term future of the football club. Spreading the financial load across thousands of fans is a much more palatable ownership model to me than relying on one individual.

It might not be as sexy as a multi-millionaire buying the club but I've seen far too many instances of that going horribly pear shaped north and south of the border in recent times to persuade me that it is worth the risk.

Richard isn't popular with the fans, that is clear, but it's really no reason to throw the whole proposal of fan ownership in the bin. Gordon leading the interim football club board with Tony Fitzpatrick is for me a a great start, whilst Richard will concentrate on the community aspect of the operation. The members, the fans, will be able to get involved, get onto the football club board if they want to, and make a real difference to the running of the club rather than just sitting complaining about everything from the sidelines.

Very keen to hear from the American bid as to what their bid entails, maybe it will include real fan involvement, who knows !?

You have already said your £10 per month will go to Smisa If 10000hrs don't complete. IMO you are against this bid but maybe I was wrong In thinking you had more Info to what was involved.

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At the last public meeting I was still swithering. Itwas 10000 hrs big chance to outline exactly how they were going to fanance the deal and support and grow SMFC moving forward. They chose not to. Instead all they chose to focus on scaremongering. However, it was a belter of a response after the meeting that nailed it for me. I commented that the deal was underfunded......the response from a would be interim board member was along the lines of....."when your buying a house you don't worry about how you are going to pay the mortgage, you just go ahead and buy it then figure out how to make it work later."

Now from a business perspective that isn't actually a bad philosophy if you are starting from scratch...building a new business and the initial investment is low and the risk is high.

For a sustainable business model on which to run a football club that is an important part of the lives of many good people (and kendo tongue.png ) we need something a bit more than a pair o' bawbags over inflated egos.

This isn't a suck it and see situation for a cunning business plan that might pay big dividends. There is zero sign of any big dividends from 10000 hrs and that is openly admitted by them. Instead it is a high risk venture with zero upside.

They've repeatedly been challenged to provide the finacial details and a business plan and have repeatedly hidden behind commercial confidentiality. Div's "nutshell" post earlier demonstrates quite clearly to me that he doesn't have the information either, or if he does he doesn't understand it.

I have yet to see a fan with no vested interest stand up and say that they have seen the financials and they are okay with them. Instead we have mindless cheerleaders trying to railroad fans into supporting a business plan they haven't seen and don't even understand the bare bones of.

We were told the business plan was vetted by the £750K grant funder......er okay....where's the money stoopit? What happened to the rest of the funders who had also approved the business plan - in principle.

The last press release stated that they were having to go back to Bii yet again...but were continuing with the bid even though the £500K loan isn't even in place.

The entire scheme is now based on wing and a prayer blind hope from what is a minority of our support. The numbers don't add up. No cnut has seen the business plan or the breakdown of the £1.25M bid. No update has been provided on the 87 club or 1877 club memberships....the 1877 club memberships supposedly making up for the shortfall from all the social funders rejecting 10000 hrs application for funding / loans.

As nutshells go....pish!

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I was pro CIC, attended the meetings and tried my best to persuade other fans it was the right thing to do. The way to make it work was in numbers, as a community, and for that it need momentum.

That momentum has been lost a long with the credibility. RAs inability to manage the club shop never mind the club sealed it for me. I'm out.

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I'm now 100% sure our club will be sold next week. .........Who do you think will be In charge Sid?

The word "sold" is an interesting one reborn. It looks like 10000 hours only have £500K capital to invest (all of which is debt to Bii). That would mean that there would be an outstanding £750K debt to the selling consortium making them the biggest debtors. Who actually owns the club is an interesting question. I don't think the word "sold" is appropriate when talking about 10000 hrs. We have still to see how the bid is being funded.

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The word "sold" is an interesting one reborn. It looks like 10000 hours only have £500K capital to invest (all of which is debt to Bii). That would mean that there would be an outstanding £750K debt to the selling consortium making them the biggest debtors. Who actually owns the club is an interesting question. I don't think the word "sold" is appropriate when talking about 10000 hrs. We have still to see how the bid is being funded.

If there Is a news conference next week and the new owner Is revealed.,,,,who will it be?

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Two things that stand out from the overall perspective of this omnishambles are.....

1) Aside from the wacky, some genuinely good ideas have surfaced, aimed increasing both revenue streams into the club, and use of the ground/facilities. No matter the buyer, it would seem like sound business sense to get these working ASAP for the betterment of the club. During the last 2 years, no less an authority than SG has said that "commercially, the club has stagnated." Who is the Commercial Director ? Surely all of the good ideas aren't being kept back for CiC repayment use ?

2) There is an appetite for fan ownership in some format of a membership scheme. Any prospective owner would be daft not to look at this very closely, with SMiSA or similar being the body working on the BoD, and something like £10k/month going into club coffers.

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Two things that stand out from the overall perspective of this omnishambles are.....

1) Aside from the wacky, some genuinely good ideas have surfaced, aimed increasing both revenue streams into the club, and use of the ground/facilities. No matter the buyer, it would seem like sound business sense to get these working ASAP for the betterment of the club. During the last 2 years, no less an authority than SG has said that "commercially, the club has stagnated." Who is the Commercial Director ? Surely all of the good ideas aren't being kept back for CiC repayment use ?

2) There is an appetite for fan ownership in some format of a membership scheme. Any prospective owner would be daft not to look at this very closely, with SMiSA or similar being the body working on the BoD, and something like £10k/month going into club coffers.

The sad reality is that the club shelved plans to develop the void as 10000 hrs tabled an alternative approach. The area might well have been developed by now.

The Invitation to Bid from the selling consortium states requires the bids to be fan / community focussed. I'm comfortable that any alternative bids real or made up by 10000 hrs will have fan empowerment schemes within them. Schemes that will be properly defined to the extent that fans will actually understand what they are getting for their investment.

The issue with 10000 hrs scheme ALL lies around how it is funded. Basically it isn't. Firstly the financing of the takeover is based on an exceptionally high gearing model. From what little we know the capital to debt ratio is well above the accepted norms. Even acceptable high gearing ratios should be avoided in high righ economic situations such as a credit crunch. On that basis alone it has insolvency written all over it.

There appears to be an avoidance of stating how much additional revenue is required from CIC initiatives. The numbers being bandied around at the last public meeting before the 1877 and 87 club capital evaporated was £600K. What hasn't been explained is where the capital investment to generate a £600K profit to service the shortfall in capital / membership payments. I haven't seen any evidence of the innovation in the last three years that would suggest that 10000 hrs can raise an additional £600K in additional revenue, never mind additional profit.

With the £750K grant funding the gearing would just about have been pallatable as it was backed by SROI loans and low interest rates. The story was also that it would open the flood gates for additional social funding to pay for further initiatives that would benefit the CIC / SMFC.

Now it all just smacks of desperation, smoke and mirrors, trying to get away with it and catastrophic outcomes.

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Guest somner9

In the past you have moaned about being personally attacked on the forum and said we shouldn't take personal swipes at people who have a different view from our own about the CIC or other takeover options.

When it comes to posting about Richard Atkinson however, you seem to operate differently and continually drag up his religious beliefs as something to attack him with and the fact he is from Ayrshire and not originally a big football fan in general or St Mirren fan in particular. You also bang on about him buying or owning the club (if 10000Hours does complete the deal) with our money and question his motives.

I'm prepared to take the guy at face value. I don't think he is a bare faced liar as you claim he is. I don't see anything sinister in Life Church using the facilities at St Mirren Park and it doesn't seem like a church using a suite at the ground is a huge leap from a couple deciding to have a wedding ceremony there or a post-funeral function there.

He hasn't come in claiming St Mirren were his boyhood heroes but has said that since he got involved in the bid and on the board that he has got caught up in supporting the team and now considers himself a fan.

He has also said that as far as the money side goes, he has already invested his own cash in the legal set up side of things with the CIC and was looking at putting in some of his own cash for the bid and / or taking out one of teh 1877 memberships and that he and anyone else on the boards of the CIC set up would not be taking any money out of the club.

I don't think the guy is perfect or 10000Hours bid is perfect but I think both of them are honest and well-intentioned and Richard Atkinson has always seemed honest enough to say to public meetings hat he is sorry about x, y or z and could of done those better (if only he had followed Somner9's advice to the letter).

Like other fans I think Atkinson's community angle is a decent way to grow the fan base by building links with community groups and getting them to use the stadium 7 days a week rather than once a fortnight can build a decent amount of goodwill for the club and in the long term bring more fans through the gates. But the bottom line will always be that crowds are most likely to increase when the team are playing well and getting results.

Given Atkinson has now declared himself a St Mirren fan is there any chance you can tone down some of the bigoted personal attacks constantly being hurled in his direction? For better or for worse he has taken a different view from yourself about communication with the 10000Hours backers, when there is something new to say or a news update he passes it on pretty quickly (there have been 3 or 4 updates in the last month on the progress of the bid) and when there is no news he keeps quiet. I am probably not alone in preferring that level of communication and openness to someone posting day after day and week after week and month after month about whether any share of any potential profits from a bar in the void would make its way to the playing budget any time soon. Given the money SPL players are on there would have to be a helluva lot of profit from a matchday bar in the void to fund 1 players salary a year don't you think?

PS in the past you said you also took legal advice with a view to suing a fellow forum member for slander. Do you have any hard evidence that Richard Atkinson or the non-existent 10000Hours online marketing team are personally behind scaremongering and deliberately inaccurate leaks to the press?

I liked this post because it made me laugh out loud!clap.gif

If you are any sort of a man then please detail:

A - Where I have personally attacked ReA and his religious beliefs (which i don't know)?

B - Where have i mentioned Ayrshire? (some of my best friends come from Ayrshire...not)

C - on what evidence do you repeat the troll from lanarkshire's slanderous remark that I am a bigot (This i want to see all your evidence on, Mod's this needs to be addressed, if you condone people making slanderous comment by doing nothing, you are as guilty)

ReA as i said came on this forum and categorically stated that the bar/function suite in the void would be controlled by the Cic, then two weeks ago he updated us that he still intended to gift this revenue generating scheme (that you say could pay for a player) to Kibble and life Church. So did he tell the truth, yes or no?

Do you class me as a bigot for highlighting that? can you produce one piece of evidence to back up your pathetic claim???

I really couldn't give a monkeys who 'HIRES' the void/bar/suite, churches, bar mitzvah's, women support groups, st miren fans, people from ayrshire...whoever!!! That is IF the profit is going to either SMFC or to reduce the CiC debt. what you are trying and failing spectacularly to insinuate is I have a religious motive to not wanting to see one of the few Matchday revenue generating opportunities gifted to third parties who will reatin all the profit and pay next to nothing in rent!

That last bit in a nutshell shows you how naive and frankly woeful 10000 hours approach to business and generating funds is. no wonder all the funders, backers, loaners, and grant awarding bodies turned them down and left the club to be potentially propped up by the 'Big Issue'.... maybe rea has a plan for all the Cic members to flog a bundle of Big Issue's each week and donate their cut of the sale to the club???

ReA told the fans at various meetings about a range of backers and funders that he had tied-in and ready to back the bid. He hasn't managed to bring ONE funder/backer to the table, there are no soft loans, no grants..... and a big bloody debt! Did he tell the truth about that, yes or no?

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't he say he was going to invest 500k of his own money in the CiC??? Now where is that now? Did he tell the truth, yes or no?

10000 hours on this forum and througn media releases still scaremonger that the club could be taken over by an ill intentioned business person who could wreak havoc and we would have no control as it wouldn't be a fan ownership takeover. How many of these ill intenioned business people have bid for the shares on offer??? do you know one?

The leaks to the press re: DW and all the other 'bogeyman' nightmare scenarios. I have been very careful not to suggest any one individual or group behind them, but I have highlighted which group and individual have had something to gain from them. get your facts right, and read before you post rubbish.

10000 hours and the selling consortium told us we faced 'Financial armaggedon' without scumco in the spl, they jointly assisted/lent support to trying to get scumco if not an spl reprieve, then a billet in Div One. yes or no?

Can the Mods please nip this type of slanderous posting in the bud, it is perpetrated by cowards who would not repeat it to an individuals face and is more at home on scumco/green vermin forums than our own proud inclusive forum and support.

Dibbles please feel free to pm if you wish to take your slanderous allegations further, otherwise grow up and think before you postclap.gif

Edited by somner9
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The sad reality is that the club shelved plans to develop the void as 10000 hrs tabled an alternative approach. The area might well have been developed by now.

The Invitation to Bid from the selling consortium states requires the bids to be fan / community focussed. I'm comfortable that any alternative bids real or made up by 10000 hrs will have fan empowerment schemes within them. Schemes that will be properly defined to the extent that fans will actually understand what they are getting for their investment.

The issue with 10000 hrs scheme ALL lies around how it is funded. Basically it isn't. Firstly the financing of the takeover is based on an exceptionally high gearing model. From what little we know the capital to debt ratio is well above the accepted norms. Even acceptable high gearing ratios should be avoided in high righ economic situations such as a credit crunch. On that basis alone it has insolvency written all over it.

There appears to be an avoidance of stating how much additional revenue is required from CIC initiatives. The numbers being bandied around at the last public meeting before the 1877 and 87 club capital evaporated was £600K. What hasn't been explained is where the capital investment to generate a £600K profit to service the shortfall in capital / membership payments. I haven't seen any evidence of the innovation in the last three years that would suggest that 10000 hrs can raise an additional £600K in additional revenue, never mind additional profit.

With the £750K grant funding the gearing would just about have been pallatable as it was backed by SROI loans and low interest rates. The story was also that it would open the flood gates for additional social funding to pay for further initiatives that would benefit the CIC / SMFC.

Now it all just smacks of desperation, smoke and mirrors, trying to get away with it and catastrophic outcomes.

Over how many years this £600k needs to be generated. Is it 1, 10, 20, 100?

Sid, I haven't seen anything from 10000hours that shows revenue raising potential within the club - but if you go to any of the SEN conferences you can listen to story after story about business initiatives that are generating profit right throughout the sector. One of the best examples of an SEN working in Scottish Football today you only need to look East to Edinburgh Spartans. I told two years ago about how Spartans had used their SEN status to start bidding for local NHS contracts and Local Authority contracts for the delivery of health education. The one example they showed in detail was a dental hygiene programme where they would either go to local primary schools or have schools visit the club and they would teach children how to brush their teeth using a series of football skills - like getting the kids to dribble through tooth shaped cones to indicate the importance of flossing or getting kids to roll a ball with their foot up the side of one of these tooth shaped cones. When the health board ran follow up surveys with the kids months after the event they found that the programme had resulted in a higher than ever percentage of kids able to demonstrate that they had retained the information. They also found that after the delivery of the programme local dental practices reported an increase in new registrations across all age groups. The local health authority were delighted with the programme and have since extended the number contracts awarded to Spartans to cover other health topics as well.

There is a huge support network within these SEN groups all of which will provide evidence of programmes that have successfully brought in revenue and there's plenty of experience involved in those area's that would be able to provide information on what works and what doesn't. I'm no expert at all - and I'm sure others will know better than me - but I was told by one of those SEN advisers that local authority procurement departments have a range of criteria to consider when looking at the tendering process for contracts and one of the biggest scoring criteria was being able to demonstrate a social economic benefit back to the community if you win the tender - which could potentially put an SEN in an extremely strong position.

Now I've no idea how much Spartans are taking in from their contracts but I saw an initial figure that valued the first contract at £35,000. I've since seen figures ranging from £150,000 - £300,000 although it's possible some of that might relate to SROI's. Now I haven't done my homework and I haven't followed up on the information as yet - but I would think that REA might have done since he's been involved with Spartans for some time now.

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Over how many years this £600k needs to be generated. Is it 1, 10, 20, 100?

The brutally obvious point is that you have to ask the question Stu.

We haven't been told. There have been comments that it will be over 6 years, further comments that it will be over 10 years. Critical information like that is skimmed over amongst the odd bullet point in sales pitch presentations. Fans aren't meant to worry about detail like that and have effectively been banned from discussing the process. We have just to keep the faith, donate our cash and let 10000 hrs worry about the details.

I buy into the SEN to help develop the club and its place in the community. What is now being proposed is that the clubs survival becomes dependent on social funding that 10000 hrs may or may not be able to secure. They haven't been overly successful so far. Do we end up in a situation where the CIC ends up taking out more loans at the fans expense and ultimately delaying any eventual direct benefit to the club. Meantime any downturn in revenues for SMFC and the already in debt, overstretched and skint CIC is supposed to bail the club out with initiatives we know nothing about that are going to fund the shortfall in debt repayments.

Currently we are told that the club makes heehaw cash out of its current community undertakings. Suddently we are going to be able to raise over £600K in profits from social enterprise - not revenue Stu...£600K + profit that will then be used to fund the shortfall in debt repayments.

Why are we not being presented with the numbers? Everyone appears to have concerns about the CIC and how it will be funded, as well as its ability to service the debt and what the implications are in terms of the CIC becoming insolvent. No information is in the public domain and no one without a vested interest has been prepared to come forward and validate the business plan. The fans should have been allowed an independent and capable third party to review the business plan on their behalf. All we have to go on is the long line of social funders that have rejected the business plan.

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This part would worry me. Starts a company, sells it to a bigger company at a profit. Buys a company, sells it to a bigger company for a profit. Buys a company........... See where I'm going here?

I see, he is good at growing companies, adding value to companies, and making money for himself.

But you don't buy into football to make money. So perhaps he will just settle for growing St.Mirren and adding value to St.Mirren.

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I see, he is good at growing companies, adding value to companies, and making money for himself.

But you don't buy into football to make money. So perhaps he will just settle for growing St.Mirren and adding value to St.Mirren.

Yes, I never quite understand the hysteria about every potential buyer having a sinister ulterior motive. A lot of our guys who post continually say that the club has no saleable assets, apart from a few of the first team, and then every time there is mention of a buyer we hear howls of how we will be sold down the river. Presumably the Cart. If due diligence is carried out unlike in the instance of the most recent basket case, hopefully the board can establish that the prospective owner has the readies-a-plenty. Whether anything can be done to prevent the possible sale of the St.Mirren share in the SPL, I have no idea. That would be nice to clarify.

I've heard nothing yet to make me believe that the current yank does have enough cash. I assume this is the same bloke who wants to pay over three years. All these supposed multi millionaires never seem able to scrape up what, a maximum of £1-5m. to buy us outright.

It's not only 10,000 hours that doesn't add up.

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Yes, I never quite understand the hysteria about every potential buyer having a sinister ulterior motive. A lot of our guys who post continually say that the club has no saleable assets, apart from a few of the first team, and then every time there is mention of a buyer we hear howls of how we will be sold down the river. Presumably the Cart. If due diligence is carried out unlike in the instance of the most recent basket case, hopefully the board can establish that the prospective owner has the readies-a-plenty. Whether anything can be done to prevent the possible sale of the St.Mirren share in the SPL, I have no idea. That would be nice to clarify.

I've heard nothing yet to make me believe that the current yank does have enough cash. I assume this is the same bloke who wants to pay over three years. All these supposed multi millionaires never seem able to scrape up what, a maximum of £1-5m. to buy us outright.

It's not only 10,000 hours that doesn't add up.

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Yes, I never quite understand the hysteria about every potential buyer having a sinister ulterior motive. A lot of our guys who post continually say that the club has no saleable assets, apart from a few of the first team, and then every time there is mention of a buyer we hear howls of how we will be sold down the river. Presumably the Cart. If due diligence is carried out unlike in the instance of the most recent basket case, hopefully the board can establish that the prospective owner has the readies-a-plenty. Whether anything can be done to prevent the possible sale of the St.Mirren share in the SPL, I have no idea. That would be nice to clarify.

I've heard nothing yet to make me believe that the current yank does have enough cash. I assume this is the same bloke who wants to pay over three years. All these supposed multi millionaires never seem able to scrape up what, a maximum of £1-5m. to buy us outright.

It's not only 10,000 hours that doesn't add up.

That's how you become a millionaire, you don't spend your own money but use other people's money to buy a business, You then grow the business and take your cut befiore giving the investors their money back plus a profit.

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I liked this post because it made me laugh out loud!clap.gif

If you are any sort of a man then please detail:

A - Where I have personally attacked ReA and his religious beliefs (which i don't know)?

B - Where have i mentioned Ayrshire? (some of my best friends come from Ayrshire...not)

C - on what evidence do you repeat the troll from lanarkshire's slanderous remark that I am a bigot (This i want to see all your evidence on, Mod's this needs to be addressed, if you condone people making slanderous comment by doing nothing, you are as guilty)

ReA as i said came on this forum and categorically stated that the bar/function suite in the void would be controlled by the Cic, then two weeks ago he updated us that he still intended to gift this revenue generating scheme (that you say could pay for a player) to Kibble and life Church. So did he tell the truth, yes or no?

Do you class me as a bigot for highlighting that? can you produce one piece of evidence to back up your pathetic claim???

I really couldn't give a monkeys who 'HIRES' the void/bar/suite, churches, bar mitzvah's, women support groups, st miren fans, people from ayrshire...whoever!!! That is IF the profit is going to either SMFC or to reduce the CiC debt. what you are trying and failing spectacularly to insinuate is I have a religious motive to not wanting to see one of the few Matchday revenue generating opportunities gifted to third parties who will reatin all the profit and pay next to nothing in rent!

That last bit in a nutshell shows you how naive and frankly woeful 10000 hours approach to business and generating funds is. no wonder all the funders, backers, loaners, and grant awarding bodies turned them down and left the club to be potentially propped up by the 'Big Issue'.... maybe rea has a plan for all the Cic members to flog a bundle of Big Issue's each week and donate their cut of the sale to the club???

ReA told the fans at various meetings about a range of backers and funders that he had tied-in and ready to back the bid. He hasn't managed to bring ONE funder/backer to the table, there are no soft loans, no grants..... and a big bloody debt! Did he tell the truth about that, yes or no?

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't he say he was going to invest 500k of his own money in the CiC??? Now where is that now? Did he tell the truth, yes or no?

10000 hours on this forum and througn media releases still scaremonger that the club could be taken over by an ill intentioned business person who could wreak havoc and we would have no control as it wouldn't be a fan ownership takeover. How many of these ill intenioned business people have bid for the shares on offer??? do you know one?

The leaks to the press re: DW and all the other 'bogeyman' nightmare scenarios. I have been very careful not to suggest any one individual or group behind them, but I have highlighted which group and individual have had something to gain from them. get your facts right, and read before you post rubbish.

10000 hours and the selling consortium told us we faced 'Financial armaggedon' without scumco in the spl, they jointly assisted/lent support to trying to get scumco if not an spl reprieve, then a billet in Div One. yes or no?

Can the Mods please nip this type of slanderous posting in the bud, it is perpetrated by cowards who would not repeat it to an individuals face and is more at home on scumco/green vermin forums than our own proud inclusive forum and support.

Dibbles please feel free to pm if you wish to take your slanderous allegations further, otherwise grow up and think before you postclap.gif

Somner I am enjoying the irony of having you advise me to think before I post and warning me about slander! This from the chap who was worried that the consortium might have trousered the money from any sale of McGowan or McLean in the last transfer window and hung on to that for themselves and used the money to make up for any loss they made on selling the club.

It would take days if not weeks to detail all the places on this board where you have personally attacked Richard Atkinson, and besides not wanting to waste days or weeks of my life making that point and reminding you of all those occasions I would also have to suffer re-reading your posts into the bargain. No thanks.

You claim innocently to not know about Richard Atkinson's religious beliefs yet you bring up the fact that one of his directorships is with the Scottish Bible Society. You complain about Life Church's involvement in the CIC and with developing the Void potentially.

The post which I quoted did suggest that Richard Atkinson was the one leaking stories to the press. I see you are backing out of providing any evidence for this.

The post you just made also suggested that he or the 10000Hours team tried to keep Rangers in the SPL or at the very worst in SFL1. Have you any evidence for this at all? I spoke with Richard Atkinson personally after the last public meeting as the CIC's view on how Rangers' situation was a big concern for me and was potentially a deal breaker. Nothing which he said in our conversation gave me the impression he was in favour of doing any special deals to keep Rangers in the SPL and he was all in favour of giving St Mirren fans the facts and figures on how much money we made from TV deals, sponsorships, gate receipts etc from being involved with the SPL and letting the fans vote after they had time to make sense of the figures.

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