The Referendum Thread

[Ayrshire Saints]

I completely respect your point of view and you have put it very eloquently. What a change from those who simply echo Salmond's plaintive cry of 'foul'!. Andrew Neill did make a bollocks of yer wummin the other day with the no plan B thing. The reaction from the SNP is something else remembering they were sold on the euro not so long ago.

Part of the problem from an informed debate point of view is that the complete lack of a decent Scottish politician in the no camp has forced Westminster into taking matters into their own hands and hence the London political big guns are doing what the likes of Lamont and co are incapable of. The SNP are miles ahead of Labour in Scotland when it comes to debating capability and Lamont seems to disappear further into the background with each passing day. I never expected London to keep to their "this is a Scottish issue" stance but I am surprised at just how involved the likes of Cameron and Darling are getting. Having said that it's hardly AS or NS's fault that the opposition in Scotland are so abject.

[Drew]

They're all bullshitters. Both sides. Osbourne, Salmond, Alexander, Sturgeon, Barossa...

The cnuts couldn't agree on the colour of dug' shite, and none of them knows what the fcuk will happen if it is a yes vote. Not on currency, not on the EU, not on the colour of dug' shite in an independent Scotland.

Fcuk the lot of them. Someone give me a nudge when its all over.

Is Salmond's dad bigger than Osbourne's dad? Is this really all they have to offer an undecided chap like myself?

You shouldn't let the politicans put you off. They are there to be voted out, after all.

Just like St Mirren is bigger than any player, manager, or BoD, the future of our country is bigger than any self-serving career politician. One of the reasons I'm voting yes is so it will hopefully be more straightforward getting shot of some of these shiftless buggers.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Drew

[pozbaird]

You shouldn't let the politicans put you off. They are there to be voted out, after all.

Just like St Mirren is bigger than any player, manager, or BoD, the future of our country is bigger than any self-serviing career politician. One of the reasons I'm voting yes is so it will hopefully be more straightforward getting shot of some of these shiftless buggers.

Don't worry, I'll be voting. I always vote. I think this last ten days or so 'currency bullshit' from both sides has been pretty disgusting actually. This is serious stuff that affects our futures, and we've got Osbourne and Co wading in with 'there simply will be no currency union', with Salmond's retort being 'Aye there will'. With Darling coming back with 'No there won't'.

Don't they realise that they sound like big weans who have had their toys taken away?

[Ayrshire Saints]

You're falling into a familiar trap here, Rick - this notion that most people who favour independence are blinkered Salmond acolytes. I certainly don't count myself in that number.

I've already clearly stated in this thread my desire to see an independent Scotland as a republic, out with NATO, and, if necessary, out with the EU. Hardly hanging on Salmond's every word.

That's a very valid point Drew. There are a huge number in the yes campaign who quite clearly will have very different idea's of how an independent Scotland should look. The Greens and the Socialists will have very differing images of an independent Scotland to the SNP but at least they can see it for the vehicle it could be. Too many better together campers seem to get way too caught up in the Salmond factor assuming we are blind disciples hanging on his every word. A yes vote would have very little impact on any future governance of an independent Scotland imo. All that needs is for the opposition parties to get their acts together assuming they would have the fight for that after losing the referendum.

[Drew]

Don't worry, I'll be voting. I always vote. I think this last ten days or so 'currency bullshit' from both sides has been pretty disgusting actually. This is serious stuff that affects our futures, and we've got Osbourne and Co wading in with 'there simply will be no currency union', with Salmond's retort being 'Aye there will'. With Darling coming back with 'No there won't'.

Don't they realise that they sound like big weans who have had their toys taken away?

I agree that its insulting, but not surprising.

I hope most of us will decide what we want despite them.

[BuddieinEK]

They're all bullshitters. Both sides. Osbourne, Salmond, Alexander, Sturgeon, Barossa...

The cnuts couldn't agree on the colour of dug' shite,

whatever happened to the wee white dug shites you used to see in the street? Whit ur they putting in the puur dugs food these days to keep it broon?

[Drew]

It was only a matter of time before white dug shite encroached. This is B&WA after all.

Pile of pish!

Edited February 17, 2014 by Drew

[BuddieinEK]

It was only a matter of time before white dug shite encroached. This is B&WA after all.

Pile of pish!

but as with everything else in this damned thread... I genuinely don't understand and am interested!!!

[pozbaird]

It was only a matter of time before white dug shite encroached. This is B&WA after all.

Pile of pish!

In an independent Scotland, everyone will have free prescriptions, free bus travel, free healthcare, and free white dug' shit.

Unless of course George Osbourne says 'No you won't'.

Edited February 17, 2014 by pozbaird

[Bud Bundy]

In an independent Scotland, everyone will have free prescriptions, free bus travel, free healthcare, and free white dug' shit.

Unless of course George Osbourne says 'No you won't'.

[BuddieinEK]

In an independent Scotland, everyone will have free prescriptions, free bus travel, free healthcare, and free white dug' shit.

Unless of course George Osbourne says 'No you won't'.

see... typical Nat! Drew and I are busy talking "shite" and in you step with a similar but not the same currency hoping we won't notice!!! You know what you can do with your "shit"!

[Bud Bundy]

I think you gave a lot of food for thought but I've read enough of your posts in the past to know that you can take the shit that the usual suspects will throw at you. How dare you have your own views? If Salmond says shit at dawn, just get on with it. If Salmond says 'Bully, this will backfire', within minutes if not seconds the acolytes kiss his ass and repeat his rhetoric without spending a few minutes digesting it. The disclosure of Sir Nicholas Macpherson's opinion strikes me as significant. I don't profess to know how he feels about it but I really don't see how with his opinion having been disclosed it can be brushed aside as simply a UK government bullying tactic. If they really wanted to screw with it. they could have kept quiet about it until much later.

I've read Douglas Fraser's article 'Scottish Independence: Who pays price of Scotland's currency?' on the BBC's website. Food for thought? The YES crowd will instantly dismiss it but I think it's well researched by a guy who knows well how Westminster works.

Incidentally, the UK economy is doing pretty well at the moment. Hence a strong pound.

Rick, You live in an alien Country with Devolved powers on Certain Issues, Such as Social Security, Council Tax/Rate's or whatever it is Called ? Your Country/part of the Union has a pathological hatred of anything that seems to relate to the person or persons who can be described by the word " Nationalist " ? Now please take your unionist Views to your local masonic Lodge, Your Unionist Brotherhood, And The vast majority of Bigots who descend into our proud wee Nation with they're Flute's and drums and military style uniforms to try and intimidate people of different religion with vile songs and tune's, To preserve this Corrupt Union ?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I completely respect your point of view and you have put it very eloquently. What a change from those who simply echo Salmond's plaintive cry of 'foul'!. Andrew Neill did make a bollocks of yer wummin the other day with the no plan B thing. The reaction from the SNP is something else remembering they were sold on the euro not so long ago.

I think favouring the euro was about 12-15 years ago? All parties were in favour at some point in that era.

Not crying foul, just trying to add balance ;-)

[salmonbuddie]

 

Your contribution doesn't dignify a response.

That's what it should read, Drew.

Time we all ignored the troll and kept the debate sensible. In the loose sense of the word!

[oaksoft]

I WIN!!!

Bite me Oaky!

Douglas Fraser? I can't say I have read his article. I have been way too busy kissing Alex Salmond's arse, Rick.

I think we all have. Frankly I love Salmond more than you and managed to lick him harder and with more vigour than you could ever dream of.

I'd say more but I'm waiting until the great one makes another public announcement so I don't say the wrong thing.

I long to have an independent thought but frankly pRick has hit the nail on the head - I'm just too awe struck and in love with our First Minister to do anything but nod along with him.

[Stuart Dickson]

It's really interesting to see the views aired by so many pro-independence supporters and their relatively dogmatic following of the faith that is the pro-Yes campaign.

That above statement would strongly suggest that I am against the principle, but that in reality would be wrong. As a generality I support the idea of a strong independent Scotland completely un-reliant on others to survive.

My faith however has been strongly eroded over the years by the quality of the debate and the paucity of the quality of good politicians advocating separation. I recall attending SNP debates in the town hall in Paisley as far back as the late 60's. I remember amongst others, Gordon Wilson speaking and it is fair to say he argued well for the independence route, but the party never really gained much momentum by following a well-trodden path of argument that Scottish Oil for Scotland would make us truly self-sufficient and strong. I could see it then and with the obvious argument ringing in our ears, you would have thought that the Scottish Assembly vote in 1979 would (if ever there was an appropriate moment) have been followed.

I know that many point to Norway as a shining example of a country that has used North Sea oil as to how we should prosper, and also point to Denmark as an example of a similarly sized country that can survive financially in this hostile economic world. Sweden also gets mentioned in much the same way. Indeed just last week there were newspaper reports that the separated Scotland may ally themselves to the Scandinavian grouping more, if independence was secured.

All of these countries, bar none, have anything like the economic profile, the post industrial revolution economic woes and housing issues that Scotland has and will continue to face.

The time for Scotland to have turned their back on the rest of the UK and secured separation in all areas, would have been between 1966 and the coming of the Margaret Thatcher era. Why it didn't happen in '79 beats me, as we soon learned how bitter Thatcher was in her regard for Scotland.

So here we are now in a period of deja-vu, only this time round we have achieved a Scottish Assembly (now called a parliament) and even more so now, there is a terrible scarcity of good political heavyweights who in a political sense tick the box. The quality of the politician debating the argument is dire.

All I see or hear are negative arguments emanating from each side. In many respects I understand the UK parliament and the "no" campaign's position, all they can argue for is much of the same as you have now - they can't offer anything new they can't promise gold for us all, they can't say that if you vote "no" in September all will get better, all they can say is you know what you have at present and the strength of the UK behind you will ensure that it will not get any worse.

On the contrary the SNP's approach is that they can tempt you and offer you little tit-bits and they can tell you that it will get better, but they would say that wouldn't they! They've got nothing to lose................................... Yet I can't believe them. The quality of the debate in the Scottish Parliament building is pathetic and nothing convinces me from what I see or hear, that I want the current SNP political group that has secured a SMP position, as being the people that I want running my country.

The example of Salmond's argument that we must and have a right to keep the £ is of course central to his cause and a defeat of that argument would severely dent his and his party's credibility. Yet no-one has yet convinced me just how an independent Scotland can keep the current UK£ as its currency. Whatever the UK does, affects the £. Either by waging war, arguing with the EU, strength of exports and imports, increasing or decreasing the balance of trade, and meanwhile independent Scotland has no control over that stage,

I've read above that yes the £ in your Scottish pocket would be worth the same as the English £ so on your theoretical Welsh holiday it would be worth the exact same. Sorry I don't get that one - if you follow Alex Salmond's theory that we would all be better off, then the Scottish £ will actually buy you more and the stronger Scottish pound will be say 5% stronger than the UK £. I would then theoretically use my Scottish £ notes and pay 5% less for my Welsh holiday!............................................ Balderdash.

No the policy of retaining the UK £ and then not having any control over how it performs is distorted logic at its extreme. It's a flawed policy and Alex Salmond knows it. I bet he wished that their policy stated that Scotland will establish its own currency (just like the Icelanders or Norwegians) and be truly independent. The groat comes to mind readily.

This all comes back to the scarcity of good informed debate as opposed to tabloid proclamations that are designed to appeal to the Sun readership at its best. AS's counter to last week's economic intervention was risible: he called it the 3 B's, "Bluster, Bluff and Bullying", .........is that the best he can come up with! Yet again the paucity of good debate.

Either some flash of brilliance is going to happen, or by September he and his SNP acolytes will soon be looking over their shoulder at the next Scottish Parliament elections as to whether they will still have their £57,500 salaries for the next few years.

Very well put.

In 1999 I was very much pro independence not because of oil revenue but because I believed that it would allow Scotland to follow it's own path without the ability to blame England.

Since then I've seen the Scottish Parliament in action. I've seen constant calls for "tax raising powers" with no mention of tax reduction - proving I definitely won't be better off. I've seen disastrous Scottish projects, like the parliament building and Edinburgh trams proving that Scottish Politicians at all levels are woefully inept. And I've seen "independence" morph into "complete dependence" on using Sterling, admission to the EU and on NATO membership, oh and somewhat bizarrely the Monarchy.

The Yes campaign have spectacularly failed to make their case. The White Paper is no more and a long, dull, wishlist most of which is easily disassembled and it's clear that the concept of democracy is wasted on many yes campaigners.

It's a shame really. Maybe had the SNP backed Sillers and McDonald instead of Salmond they might have been able to present an honourable, we'll reasoned case with a decent level of debate.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

 

Whit?

 

The Scottish Government want a currency union - which would include keeping Scotland's share of the national debt.

 

You're losing it Stuart.  I'm assuming this divorce is proving stressful?

Yet when Westminster refused to keep the joint bank account open, the SNP first retort was that they wouldn't pay their debts. It's easy to share debt when you can dip into your former partners money to pay it....

[oaksoft]

They're all bullshitters. Both sides. Osbourne, Salmond, Alexander, Sturgeon, Barossa...

Of course all of those above are bullshitting.

They are politicians.

Sorry have you only just realised this?

Some of us were clued up to this quite some time ago.

[The Original 59er]

I can take brickbats, thick skinned am I!

To continue my apparently one-dimensional argument, tell me how the UK£ or those that support the UK£ after independence, i.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would accept the risk of supporting the Scottish banking system and its independent routes of procuring business.

It's not too long ago for either Oaksoft or Drew to remember the slight mess that our dearly beloved RBofS or for that matter the BofS got into and how the UK treasury (i.e. the UK tax-payer) bailed them out.

Pray tell me either of you, without being condescending, why the rest of the UK i.e. England, Wales & NI, would accept the risk of allowing Scotland to keep the UK£ when they have no control over the Scottish banking system?

It has a little bit of feel like Cuba, where the tourist CUC is pegged basically to the apparently filthy US$, yet the internal Peso is something like 26.5 Cuban Pesos to the US$. God forbid we get into a dual currency arrangement.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if its independence that you want, why not take on the full independence characteristics of a separate currency, then you have no tie to the UK economy and what they do, won't affect the Scottish Groat.

Take a leaf out of Iceland's book, (however just bear in mind their complete Banking collapse and also that their banking system is actually proportionally less than the like-for-like Scottish ratio of the GDP) and go for independence without ties to the EU and then you can set your own fishing policies, your own defence arrangements and also your own currency not tied to anything else.

Now that MIGHT appeal, however the sh*t scared politicians know they can't take that leap as they enjoy the relative security of European and UK shelter that the grants and financial aid that is thrown at 'poor' EU states.

Sorry to say the debate is VERY POOR and the quality of those on both sides is reflective of that debate.

[Maboza]

I can take brickbats, thick skinned am I!

To continue my apparently one-dimensional argument, tell me how the UK£ or those that support the UK£ after independence, i.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would accept the risk of supporting the Scottish banking system and its independent routes of procuring business.

It's not too long ago for either Oaksoft or Drew to remember the slight mess that our dearly beloved RBofS or for that matter the BofS got into and how the UK treasury (i.e. the UK tax-payer) bailed them out.

Pray tell me either of you, without being condescending, why the rest of the UK i.e. England, Wales & NI, would accept the risk of allowing Scotland to keep the UK£ when they have no control over the Scottish banking system?

It has a little bit of feel like Cuba, where the tourist CUC is pegged basically to the apparently filthy US$, yet the internal Peso is something like 26.5 Cuban Pesos to the US$. God forbid we get into a dual currency arrangement.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if its independence that you want, why not take on the full independence characteristics of a separate currency, then you have no tie to the UK economy and what they do, won't affect the Scottish Groat.

Take a leaf out of Iceland's book, (however just bear in mind their complete Banking collapse and also that their banking system is actually proportionally less than the like-for-like Scottish ratio of the GDP) and go for independence without ties to the EU and then you can set your own fishing policies, your own defence arrangements and also your own currency not tied to anything else.

Now that MIGHT appeal, however the sh*t scared politicians know they can't take that leap as they enjoy the relative security of European and UK shelter that the grants and financial aid that is thrown at 'poor' EU states.

Sorry to say the debate is VERY POOR and the quality of those on both sides is reflective of that debate.

Possibly worth pointing out for balance that in your worst case scenario of a Scottish banking crisis the UK most likely contribute to any bailout - whether that be within or outwith a currency union as can be seen by the £7bn+ UK bailout towards Ireland and £3.5bn+ which went towards the Icelandic crisis.

Also worth noting that the US Federal Reserve contributed $1tn / £640bn to bailout UK based banks of which Barclays (HQ, One Churchill Place, London) received approx £583bn.

Which leads to the fact that banks are bailed out by where they do business rather than strictly where their HQ is based. This can be further noticed by cross-border bail outs with Dexia and Fortis banks in Europe during the financial crisis.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Maboza

[pozbaird]

Of course all of those above are bullshitting.

They are politicians.

Sorry have you only just realised this?

Some of us were clued up to this quite some time ago.

Erm, aye, you're right... At 52 years of age, I hadn't realised all politicians were bullshitters until this week, when the 'yes' and 'no' campaigns opened their gobs and waffled about currency in any post-independent Scotland.

Thanks for enlightening me Oaksoft, the clouds have just parted, a huge beam shone on me from the heavens, and, in the immortal words of the prophet KT Tunstall 'Suddenly I See'.

Thanks again mate. Appreciate the help.

Edited February 18, 2014 by pozbaird

[Drew]

I can take brickbats, thick skinned am I!

To continue my apparently one-dimensional argument, tell me how the UK£ or those that support the UK£ after independence, i.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would accept the risk of supporting the Scottish banking system and its independent routes of procuring business.

It's not too long ago for either Oaksoft or Drew to remember the slight mess that our dearly beloved RBofS or for that matter the BofS got into and how the UK treasury (i.e. the UK tax-payer) bailed them out.

Pray tell me either of you, without being condescending, why the rest of the UK i.e. England, Wales & NI, would accept the risk of allowing Scotland to keep the UK£ when they have no control over the Scottish banking system?

It has a little bit of feel like Cuba, where the tourist CUC is pegged basically to the apparently filthy US$, yet the internal Peso is something like 26.5 Cuban Pesos to the US$. God forbid we get into a dual currency arrangement.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if its independence that you want, why not take on the full independence characteristics of a separate currency, then you have no tie to the UK economy and what they do, won't affect the Scottish Groat.

Take a leaf out of Iceland's book, (however just bear in mind their complete Banking collapse and also that their banking system is actually proportionally less than the like-for-like Scottish ratio of the GDP) and go for independence without ties to the EU and then you can set your own fishing policies, your own defence arrangements and also your own currency not tied to anything else.

Now that MIGHT appeal, however the sh*t scared politicians know they can't take that leap as they enjoy the relative security of European and UK shelter that the grants and financial aid that is thrown at 'poor' EU states.

Sorry to say the debate is VERY POOR and the quality of those on both sides is reflective of that debate.

Genuine question: have you actually read all (or even the majority) of the posts on here?

If you have, then it seems to me that you're are conveniently missing many of the points that have been made, in what I would regard as a comparatively clear and measured manner. Either that, or you have simply failed to grasp what is being debated.

I have already stated on at least two occasions that I am not at all convinced of the merits of a currency union. Indeed, I can foresee a number of drawbacks (again, I've highlighted these).

I'm afraid this makes no sense to me:

To continue my apparently one-dimensional argument, tell me how the UK£ or those that support the UK£ after independence, i.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would accept the risk of supporting the Scottish banking system and its independent routes of procuring business.

There would either be a formal currency union, which would result in Scotland being equally liable, or it would be informal (ie - Scotland pegging its currency to the pound) in which case the other countries you refer to would have no liabaility. Is this a difficult concept to grasp?

You then all but repeat the same question (albeit a little more patronising in tone this time):

Pray tell me either of you, without being condescending, why the rest of the UK i.e. England, Wales & NI, would accept the risk of allowing Scotland to keep the UK£ when they have no control over the Scottish banking system?

Again, this has been done to death. They cannot stop Scotland using the pound. The key, as I've just noted, is whether any currency union would be formal or otherwise. I've previously referred to a number of such informal 'pegging' arrangements in an international context.

Listen, sunshine, I seem to be repeating things that myself and others have post time and again on here. Why don't you do us all a favour and desist from the bombastic posturing, and instead, read some of the contributions that other people have taken the time to compose and post, and offer direct responses. It is interesting to note that you don't tend to quote anything that another member has posted. Paucity of debate, indeed....

[The Original 59er]

"Possibly worth pointing out for balance that in your worst case scenario of a Scottish banking crisis the UK most likely contribute to any bailout - whether that be within or outwith a currency union as can be seen by the £7bn+ UK bailout towards Ireland and £3.5bn+ which went towards the Icelandic crisis.

Also worth noting that the US Federal Reserve contributed $1tn / £640bn to bailout UK based banks of which Barclays (HQ, One Churchill Place, London) received approx £583bn.

Which leads to the fact that banks are bailed out by where they do business rather than strictly where their HQ is based. This can be further noticed by cross-border bail outs with Dexia and Fortis banks in Europe during the financial crisis."

Perhaps so Maboza, however that would very much depend on the Scottish Banks falling in line with the EU and UK Treasury policies as to how banks should act. Assuming they sign into that agreement, how would they be independent?

Whilst much of the reasoning behind the Icelandic banking collapse was linked to the property crash, particularly in the UK, there has been substantial discussion and disagreement between the countries as to compensation payments. Would that occur between the UK and the Scottish Banking system?

Once thing I have learned is never say "Never"!

[The Original 59er]

Drew, 83 pages of this so-called debate is a challenge, I suggest, most contributors might body-swerve. Be that as it may, yes I have read a fair cross section of contributions and yes I do recognise polarised opinions.

As one poster said yesterday, I may well lean towards the Yesish side, but I'm greatly saddened by the quality of politician that will lead my country if the vote is for independence.

I did ask for non-condescension ........................apparently impossible for you, however I'll desist from personal attack and leave you to your apparent saltire coloured view from your blue-tinted spectacles and perhaps read some other medium for informed debate.

Bullying seems to become you!

[Drew]

Drew, 83 pages of this so-called debate is a challenge, I suggest, most contributors might body-swerve. Be that as it may, yes I have read a fair cross section of contributions and yes I do recognise polarised opinions.

As one poster said yesterday, I may well lean towards the Yesish side, but I'm greatly saddened by the quality of politician that will lead my country if the vote is for independence.

I did ask for non-condescension ........................apparently impossible for you, however I'll desist from personal attack and leave you to your apparent saltire coloured view from your blue-tinted spectacles and perhaps read some other medium for informed debate.

Bullying seems to become you!

This is a wind-up, right?