Sweeper07 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Was seriously asking where he will be playing, unaware he was out of contract. I won't add the last bit. Apologies - though you might be having a dig - as we are not mathematically beyond the wrong play off position for League 1 yet. I don't know if he can step up - but Declan McManus was in a similar position (Though he went down south and is at Morton on loan and managing a few goals) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norrie82 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Watson will leave sadly. Player of the year no doubt bout it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Personally I would love us to offer Watson a better deal than St. J's do and keep him (let's stop the penny pinching and invest for a future in the Premiership) FFS Aye let's gamble our future again. It was sooooo much fun the last time we tried it. This time it will work though. I think……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeian1877 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 FFS Aye let's gamble our future again. It was sooooo much fun the last time we tried it. This time it will work though. I think……. It's no exactly gambling our future though is it. We're talking about offering a guy who had burst his arse this year for us a decent contract.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 It's no exactly gambling our future though is it. We're talking about offering a guy who had burst his arse this year for us a decent contract.... How much is a decent contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnus Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 How much is a decent contract?[/quoteWhen was the last time we gambled our future? When Tony tried to save us from relegation? The reason I ask is that we have successfully brought good players to the club since then. Teale, Thompson, McGowan,Sampson, Hasselbaink, Carey, Van Zanten, Goodwin, Mclean etc. The BoD should know the answer to your question but seem not to. Keeping our best players is a statement of intent and we used to do it fairly well without gambling our future. It's more of a gamble letting this deep seated decline continue on its current sad trajectory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) St Mirren have always lost our better players to bigger clubs and always will. We should not and will not be breaking the wage structure for any player. We are a Championship club with a Championship budget. Edited April 6, 2016 by TopCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) St Mirren have always lost our better players to bigger clubs and always will. We should not and will not be breaking the wage structure for any player. We are a Championship club with a Championship budget. We weren't a Championship Club with a championship budget last year - so something bad has changed that. So why do you believe we are now stuck where we are now? With ambition like that we will be lucky if we can stay a Championship club. Money in the current budget will be freed up by 2 very well paid players and others leaving. Can't we make our best player our top earner? (Messi get's paid more than some of his team mates - though on a different wage scale than ours) No one is saying we need to pay way beyond our capacity, but lets not offer so little that we have no chance of keeping our best players that penny pinching is partly what got us relegated. e.g. Ross County signed a striker that kept them up - Teale wanted him too, but we could not offer decent money. He went to a team that looked dead certs for relegation and he scored plenty - guess what, we got the relegation in stead - HOW MUCH did that cost us? Look at our budget and the quality of the players we can attract now? Let me say it once more - successful teams and businesses speculate to accumulate - the wise and successful ones invest well and deliver success. Since Rae came along - the rise in our success / ability has so far been fabulous after years of decline. If we don't permit him some scope for winning the league next year it will be another tragic BOD management failure for us. Since it looks like a fair number of players are leaving and possibly income from Mallan before next season or at some point next year; just maybe we can invest and plan to do well, rather than set out our supreme target as "try not to get relegated". Edited April 7, 2016 by Sweeper07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 We weren't a Championship Club with a championship budget last year - so something bad has made us that. So why do you believe we are now stuck where we are? With ambition like that we will be lucky if we can stay a Championship club. Money in the current budget will be freed up by 2 very well paid players and others leaving. Can't we make our best player our top earner? (Messi get's paid more than some of his team mates - though on a different wage scale that ours) No one is saying we need to pay way beyond our capacity, but lets not offer so little that we have no chance of keeping our best players that is partly what got us relegated and Ross County signed a striker that kept them up - Teale wanted him too, but we could not offer decent money. He went to a team that looked dead certs for relegation - guess what, we got the relegation in stead - HOW MUCH did that cost us? Look at our budget and the quality of the players we can attract now? Let me say it once more - successful teams and businesses speculate to accumulate - the wise and successful ones invest well and deliver success. Since Rae came along - the rise in our success / ability has so far been fabulous after a years of decline. If we don't permit him some scope for winning the league next year it will be another tragic BOD management failure for us. Since it looks like a fair number of players leaving and possibly income from Mallan before next season or at some point next year; just maybe we can invest and plan to do well, rather than set out our goal as try not to get relegated. It's people like you that scare me about fan ownership. We should spend what comes in and not a penny more. Basically you're saying we should speculate with the long term future of the club to increase the chance of short term gain? Madness. Thankfully we won't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 You are obviously too young to know that St Mirren signed Frank McDougall by out bidding Celtic. That same close season we signed Sir Doug of Somner. Indeed I am, a quick google shows McDougall went to Aberdeen from us though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) It's people like you that scare me about fan ownership. We should spend what comes in and not a penny more. Basically you're saying we should speculate with the long term future of the club to increase the chance of short term gain? Madness. Thankfully we won't do that. You obviously have no idea what I mean by speculating - I am not suggesting mad high risk gambling and taking on loads of debt - but that seems to be what you are assuming. However, there is an element of risk/speculating no matter what players and contracts we sign. Too many young cheap immature folk like we started the season with was a risk that failed badly - that's why Rae signed 3 decent guys from the Premiership. His speculation has no doubt worked a lot better than Murray's. Where did you conjure "short term gain" from? No fan wants a flitting season in the Premiership. You either can't read or are word blind and your reference to not a penny more makes me think that you are Stewart Gilmour or one of his relatives. Why don't you change your name to Mediocre Cat? Edited April 6, 2016 by Sweeper07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 You obviously have no idea what I mean by speculating - I am not suggesting mad high risk gambling and taking on loads of debt - but that seems to be what you are assuming. However, there is an element of risk/speculating no matter what players and contracts we sign. Too many young cheap immature folk like we started the season with was a risk that failed badly - that's why Rae signed 3 decent guys from the Premiership. His speculation has no doubt worked a lot better than Murray's. Where did you conjure "short term gain" from? No fan wants a flitting season in the Premiership. You either can't read or are word blind and your reference to not a penny more makes me think that you are Stewart Gilmour or one of his relatives. Why don't you change your name to Mediocre Cat? What do you mean by speculating then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 You missed the best period of football players IMHO who represented club and some for country between 76-87. Most of the current lot could not lace the boots of that generation. Your knowledge of that period will be far better than me, however, am I not right in saying we sold the vast majority of our top players? McAvennie, Stark, Weir... Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ McG Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 FFS Aye let's gamble our future again. It was sooooo much fun the last time we tried it. This time it will work though. I think. Gambling our future lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 What do you mean by speculating then? Having a well thought out business plan for "achievable success" - at least 5 years and longer term aims for say 10. Investigating the options and risks to make the plan work. Then having a management team that make it happen. One model is the 4 M one :- Money: budget, cash flow, financial systems, to permit the plan to work well Methods: policies and procedures which drive the aims and ambitions through the organisation Machines: making the most of the best possible "tool" available in every area that can help the business perform Manpower: crap workers do no one any favours. Get the best you can afford, keep the ones that you are able at least until they are at their peak. I am not going to type out all the possibilities - but we can see from other clubs what they have done and which ones are improving or demand success. We are not likely to be able to win the Premiership in the next 10 years - but surely planning to get back into it and retain Premiership status is not now beyond us? It wasn't a few years back. Then top 6 - are St Mirren not capable of being a top 8 team? The Club have done some good stuff (Training facilities etc. etc.) but on the mindset for doing better , the bar is set too low - that is why we are in the top 17 at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) Having a well thought out business plan for "achievable success" - at least 5 years and longer term aims for say 10. Investigating the options and risks to make the plan work. Then having a management team that make it happen. One model is the 4 M one :- Money: budget, cash flow, financial systems, to permit the plan to work well Methods: policies and procedures which drive the aims and ambitions through the organisation Machines: making the most of the best possible "tool" available in every area that can help the business perform Manpower: crap workers do no one any favours. Get the best you can afford, keep the ones that you are able at least until they are at their peak. I am not going to type out all the possibilities - but we can see from other clubs what they have done and which ones are improving or demand success. We are not likely to be able to win the Premiership in the next 10 years - but surely planning to get back into it and retain Premiership status is not now beyond us? It wasn't a few years back. Then top 6 - are St Mirren not capable of being a top 8 team? The Club have done some good stuff (Training facilities etc. etc.) but on the mindset for doing better , the bar is set too low - that is why we are in the top 17 at the moment. Nothing speculative about it then. Some amount of corporate business speak shite though. PS we are 19th in Scotland, not 17th. Edited April 6, 2016 by TopCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Your knowledge of that period will be far better than me, however, am I not right in saying we sold the vast majority of our top players? McAvennie, Stark, Weir... Etc. Aye for decent money Not for a bag of balls and set of bibs these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 You are obviously too young to know that St Mirren signed Frank McDougall by out bidding Celtic. That same close season we signed Sir Doug of Somner. McDougall was the Scottish record transfer fee at the time.... £180k. I also remember us offering Dundee £400k for,I think,Tommy Coyne and Keith Wright but they knocked us back!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 McDougall was the Scottish record transfer fee at the time.... £180k. I also remember us offering Dundee £400k for,I think,Tommy Coyne and Keith Wright but they knocked us back!!! Indeed... The start of the journey that led to us having to sell our home in love street. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Nothing speculative about it then. Some amount of corporate business speak shite though. PS we are 19th in Scotland, not 17th. So if its not speculative - is it guaranteed to work? There is always risk investing - whether it is done overcautiously, boldly or somewhere in between. This business speak works - it is better than fag packet plans and reacting after the horse has bolted. (Taking the cheap manager replacement options that keep failing etc. etc.) (It's a riot you were critical of fan management from people like me) We are 19th at the moment but we will soon be in 17th Changed your name yet? Edited April 7, 2016 by Sweeper07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnus Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Nothing speculative about it then. Some amount of corporate business speak shite though. PS we are 19th in Scotland, not 17th. Very dismissive of a fan that's presenting a considered opinion. The shared hope here is for us to have a decent top 4 challenging team next season. We all agree Keith Watson is a good football player and we'll worth signing. We don't know what St Johnstone have offered but they are a well run club also so its unlikely to be daft money. We will be releasing the majority of the current poor squad, we have had a parachute payment, cash from McGinn and Mclean and of course the upcoming bonanza from Rangers. This surely allows us to make a competitive offer to keep a top player without a Mr Micawber inspired meltdown. Edited April 7, 2016 by magnus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Gambling our future lol. In fairness sweeper is talking about spending more than we are bringing in. He specifically criticised TC for using the phrase "spend what we bring in and not a penny more". Clearly you are arithmetically challenged so I will spell it out for you - spending more than you are bringing in is financial mismanagement, will leave us in debt and debt risks the future of our club. I'm sorry but I thought literally everyone understood that basic arithmetic principle. Edited April 7, 2016 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 Having a well thought out business plan for "achievable success" - at least 5 years and longer term aims for say 10. Investigating the options and risks to make the plan work. Then having a management team that make it happen. One model is the 4 M one :- Money: budget, cash flow, financial systems, to permit the plan to work well Methods: policies and procedures which drive the aims and ambitions through the organisation Machines: making the most of the best possible "tool" available in every area that can help the business perform Manpower: crap workers do no one any favours. Get the best you can afford, keep the ones that you are able at least until they are at their peak. Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox ever posted on this forum. Business is VERY simple and it doesn't need a cut and paste from Wiki. We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business. If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust. To buy better players (which we ALL want), we need more income or reduced outgoings. So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 Very dismissive of a fan that's presenting a considered opinion. It's an opinion which deserves to be dismissed TBH unless he can ditch the corporate speak and actually come up with some decent proposals for either increasing income or reducing outgoings. That's all that is needed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeian1877 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 How much is a decent contract? Give him thommo's wage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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