Poor R*ngers Theads Merged.....

[Stuart Dickson]

In fairness it's a thread that hasn't taken off and there's only a handful of posters calling for a sectarian redundancy policy. Those who are, are total retards but I actually think that what is happening there is pretty symptomatic of the changes we've all seen at r*ngers over the last 25 years. Back then there would be universal acceptance, if not complete support for a sectarian employment policy amongst their support. That's been dying out for years now and it's at least one legacy that Graeme Souness and David Murray left behind that has improved the Scottish game.

It's right of course to continue to criticise the club until it's completely eradicated sectarianism from it's support but whatever else happens I think we should acknowledge that at least significant progress has been made.

[windae cleaner]

In fairness it's a thread that hasn't taken off and there's only a handful of posters calling for a sectarian redundancy policy. Those who are, are total retards but I actually think that what is happening there is pretty symptomatic of the changes we've all seen at r*ngers over the last 25 years. Back then there would be universal acceptance, if not complete support for a sectarian employment policy amongst their support. That's been dying out for years now and it's at least one legacy that Graeme Souness and David Murray left behind that has improved the Scottish game.

It's right of course to continue to criticise the club until it's completely eradicated sectarianism from it's support but whatever else happens I think we should acknowledge that at least significant progress has been made.

It will never go away as r*ngers are a symbol for what they stand for.

To be fair i heard stories about self policing at Ipox when the auld songs were getting belted out

[bluto]

Apart from the appalling howling of sectarian nastiness on Saturday, a £1 coin was thrown onto the pitch at Ibrokes .

Police are investigating to see if it was hooliganism or a take-over bid.

[Liason909]

Scum of the highest order. FTOF. Footballs shame, not Scotlands.

[shull]

Geoff Brown is a f**kin bawbag.

Scottish fitba desperately needs the Old Firm according to him.

Thats because he needs their money to pay silly wages to his pishy players.

With very poor crowds , the Fakes, among others, should be paying Part Time wages and telling the Old Firm to f**k off.

f**kin looney fake fannies.

FTOF TAE !

[lovestreet]

Lock this pish, couldn't give a f**k what they're saying TBH hence I didn't read the link. Why ? As I said could give a flying f**k!

[St. Sid]

Why are you reading r*ngers forums?

Its worse than that - you need a login to read it.

[St. Sid]

Real Radio was reporting that the administrators have admitted that Whyte used the ticketus money to buy scumgers. Him and his "professional services" hingers ons have really done a number on the scumgers fans. £5K a week one of his buddies taking out of the ticketus money for...and this is the best bit....tax advice.

[buddiecat]

aye the money was used to pay off the debt to lloyds bank as well, but if it was "resting" in another account for a few months - how much interest did it make ? and who got that money

Edited February 21, 2012 by buddiecat

[shull]

Real Radio was reporting that the administrators have admitted that Whyte used the ticketus money to buy scumgers. Him and his "professional services" hingers ons have really done a number on the scumgers fans. £5K a week one of his buddies taking out of the ticketus money for...and this is the best bit....tax advice.

Whyte, a buddie with a grudge ?

[shull]

Nae point in forming a new r*ngers.

The cnuts widnae be welcome in the 3rd division never mind the SPL.

I wid have Micky Lawson's Team ahead of the new Bigots F.C.

[Bearsden buddie]

Just heard that Craig whyte has promised to step down as r*ngers chairman once the club exit administration. He also claimed that any idea of him wanting to make big money from r*ngers situation was ludicrous.

Good to know he has a great sense of humour

Edited February 21, 2012 by Bearsden buddie

[civilsaint]

It's going to be Liquid.... Can't see any other option.

The SPL rules on such situations are very simple.

"Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League

H5: If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly." [Emphasis added]

Of course, the SPL Articles of Association do allow changes to be made though......

Edited February 21, 2012 by civilsaint

[BoWSaint]

It is all explained quite clearly here.........

[buddiecool]

It is all explained quite clearly here.........

Craig whyte & Richard Atkinson, Discussing Takeover's of Football Clubs in ASDA ( Linwood ) Circa 2011 ? ( The Fan's will Help Us ? )

Edited February 22, 2012 by buddiecool

[RickMcD]

It is all explained quite clearly here.........

Thank you for that. An absolute classic. I was in tears laughing at it.

[salmonbuddie]

They've obviously realised how bad it makes them look, it was open to all yesterday lunchtime.

[alanmurray24]

It's going to be Liquid.... Can't see any other option.

The SPL rules on such situations are very simple.

"Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League

H5: If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly." [Emphasis added]

Of course, the SPL Articles of Association do allow changes to be made though......

CivilSaint as I posted back on 17th.........................

Hugh Keveans (sorry for spelling) on Radio Clyde phone in.....................

Stated that the Scottish News Media were asked to come to a press conference (by SPL) this afternoon and was told what would happen if R****** went into Liquidation................

If this was to happen the "Phoenix" that comes out would need to apply to the SFA and then to SPL, At this point SPL board would then meet to look at application.

And here is the funny bit........... Jim Delahunt has got SPL rule book and I think he quoted Rule 5H

That states any club falling into Liquidation would have its result null and void and be removed from the League, no relegation from league and a second team from SFL would join the league.

Hugh's reply was amazing and I never thought I would hear it " it looks like we have a rule book for R***** and one for everybody else" "And it seeems that the rule book has been changed"

This is totally amazing that SPL have already made their mind up.

Rule books will be chucked out the window and new hoops will be jumped through for this mob

[bluto]

Rules may be changed - but money talks.

How will the rules impact, if at all, on the best case scenario outlined below?

Courtesy of barcabhoy on rangerstaxcase.com:

HMRC want their money. Their own rules dictate that they MUST NOT

reduce the amount of tax owed

A deal has to be done between HMRC and the administrator

Given the above, the administrator must not place HMRC ahead of the

other unsecured creditors. Which means that the best the other

unsecured creditors can hope for is 100% of what they owe, plus

interest , paid back over a long period. Lets get ridiculous and say 10

years.

I posted a week ago about the extent of the creditors. The unaudited

accounts showed it as £67 million. Lets look at absolute best case

scenarios.

Lets assume that £67 million included season ticket obligations to the

fans, not Ticketus, and these would reduce as the season unfolds . I am

not convinced this is the case, however lets assume it is

This would make the creditors £47 million. To this we need to add

whatever Whyte has racked up under his control. Once again, lets make

the assumption that he has not worsened the position, apart from the £9

million to HMRC. That is likely to be utterly wrong, but on a best case

scenario, lets add this to the £47 million

So we are now at £56 million. Thats a situation which is absolute best

case for r*ngers, and does not include any monies owed to Whyte, that

have accrued since July 2011, and does not include the big tax case

So assume, ridiculously that Whyte has not levied fees or interest and

we can start to look at paybacks

The £56 million will not attract interest of 1% or anything as low in

my view. There may be an occasion where this has happened with HMRC,

however politically and strategically HMRC cannot offer borrowing rates

at way below the amounts offered by RBS and others

However on a best case scenario, however unlikely , lets say its 1.5 %

This will mean an interest charge of £840,000 in yr 1 of the 10 year

payback, with a further £5.6 million of capital payback

This is a company remember who also have to pay back £9 million a year

to Ticketus

That gives us a payment profile of £15.4 million a year, before the big

tax case hits, before you open a door at Ibrox, before you pay a player

and all on annual revenue of £35 million a year without European monies.

Thats on an absolutely best case scenario, giving the benefit of the

doubt to every single scenario.

You could probably get through the first year by selling every player

of value, and replacing them with youth and Bosmans. You will have to

implement a wage cap at levels similar to Hibs and Aberdeen. You would

cut back the entire scale of the business, however this probably

jeapordise income streams

But what do you do in year 2, and whats the plan if the FTT deliver a

judgement at the expected levels.

This business seems to me to fail a VIABILITY test, and therein lies a

major problem

HMRC are specifically forbidden from offering time to pay to any

business which is not viable. The business plan cannott include

speculative income , such as Player sales, and European income which is

not guaranteed

I can’t see how HMRC can agree a deal without bteaking its own rules.

Thats what MP’s should be focused on, rather than making tacit requests

for the rules to be set aside.

[shull]

Robison is in the Media again telling us all how much we need r*ngers.

When is anybody gonnae tell the truth ?

And say, good riddens to the sectarian f**kwits and hope similar bigots c*ltic f**k off and die tae.

[bud77]

Rules may be changed - but money talks.

How will the rules impact, if at all, on the best case scenario outlined below?

Courtesy of barcabhoy on rangerstaxcase.com:

HMRC want their money. Their own rules dictate that they MUST NOT

reduce the amount of tax owed

A deal has to be done between HMRC and the administrator

Given the above, the administrator must not place HMRC ahead of the

other unsecured creditors. Which means that the best the other

unsecured creditors can hope for is 100% of what they owe, plus

interest , paid back over a long period. Lets get ridiculous and say 10

years.

I posted a week ago about the extent of the creditors. The unaudited

accounts showed it as £67 million. Lets look at absolute best case

scenarios.

Lets assume that £67 million included season ticket obligations to the

fans, not Ticketus, and these would reduce as the season unfolds . I am

not convinced this is the case, however lets assume it is

This would make the creditors £47 million. To this we need to add

whatever Whyte has racked up under his control. Once again, lets make

the assumption that he has not worsened the position, apart from the £9

million to HMRC. That is likely to be utterly wrong, but on a best case

scenario, lets add this to the £47 million

So we are now at £56 million. Thats a situation which is absolute best

case for r*ngers, and does not include any monies owed to Whyte, that

have accrued since July 2011, and does not include the big tax case

So assume, ridiculously that Whyte has not levied fees or interest and

we can start to look at paybacks

The £56 million will not attract interest of 1% or anything as low in

my view. There may be an occasion where this has happened with HMRC,

however politically and strategically HMRC cannot offer borrowing rates

at way below the amounts offered by RBS and others

However on a best case scenario, however unlikely , lets say its 1.5 %

This will mean an interest charge of £840,000 in yr 1 of the 10 year

payback, with a further £5.6 million of capital payback

This is a company remember who also have to pay back £9 million a year

to Ticketus

That gives us a payment profile of £15.4 million a year, before the big

tax case hits, before you open a door at Ibrox, before you pay a player

and all on annual revenue of £35 million a year without European monies.

Thats on an absolutely best case scenario, giving the benefit of the

doubt to every single scenario.

You could probably get through the first year by selling every player

of value, and replacing them with youth and Bosmans. You will have to

implement a wage cap at levels similar to Hibs and Aberdeen. You would

cut back the entire scale of the business, however this probably

jeapordise income streams

But what do you do in year 2, and whats the plan if the FTT deliver a

judgement at the expected levels.

This business seems to me to fail a VIABILITY test, and therein lies a

major problem

HMRC are specifically forbidden from offering time to pay to any

business which is not viable. The business plan cannott include

speculative income , such as Player sales, and European income which is

not guaranteed

I can’t see how HMRC can agree a deal without bteaking its own rules.

Thats what MP’s should be focused on, rather than making tacit requests

for the rules to be set aside.

Interesting figures you've come up with here. To get agreement on a CVA you need 75% by value vote to agree it. If the debt is £56M, then 25% of that is £14 M. HMRC are owed £4.4M for the small tax case plus £9M for this year's PAYE and VAT = £13.4M. It would only need a few small creditors to block any CVA.

[oaksoft]

Interesting figures you've come up with here. To get agreement on a CVA you need 75% by value vote to agree it. If the debt is £56M, then 25% of that is £14 M. HMRC are owed £4.4M for the small tax case plus £9M for this year's PAYE and VAT = £13.4M. It would only need a few small creditors to block any CVA.

If the likelihood is that a newly formed r*ngers get to immediately join the SPL with the debt wiped out then maybe liquidation is NOT the best hope for the rest of us.

Maybe the best hope is for them to limp on as they are with that debt needing cleared.

That would result in player sales and reduced quality at Ibrox with resulting lower crowds to mid-1980's levels.

A this point only 1 club would be bringing any sizeable support to away games meaning the OF influence on other teams would be halved overnight.

Needs must under these circumstances and league reconstruction would be attempted because the TV money wouldn't compensate for losing r*ngers money on the home gate.

c*ltic would struggle because with no competition, nobody would sign for them.

So, maybe we get what we want after al if they stick around in the current form.

I just can't see them being allowed to disappear.

Too many people need to unleash their latent bigotry to allow the only channel open to them to disappear.

A reformed r*ngers because of liquidation COULD be a disaster.

Much as I hate to admit it of course.

Edited February 22, 2012 by oaksoft

[bud77]

If the likelihood is that a newly formed r*ngers get to immediately join the SPL with the debt wiped out then maybe liquidation is NOT the best hope for the rest of us.

Maybe the best hope is for them to limp on as they are with that debt needing cleared.

That would result in player sales and reduced quality at Ibrox with resulting lower crowds to mid-1980's levels.

A this point only 1 club would be bringing any sizeable support to away games meaning the OF influence on other teams would be halved overnight.

Needs must under these circumstances and league reconstruction would be attempted because the TV money wouldn't compensate for losing r*ngers money on the home gate.

c*ltic would struggle because with no competition, nobody would sign for them.

So, maybe we get what we want after al if they stick around in the current form.

I just can't see them being allowed to disappear.

Too many people need to unleash their latent bigotry to allow the only channel open to them to disappear.

A reformed r*ngers because of liquidation COULD be a disaster.

Much as I hate to admit it of course.

On their last accounts r*ngers assets were reported to be worth about £100M, I think the most likely outcome if a CVA is not agreed is an asset sale being forced. Some of the players like McGregor would be sold in the summer, probably Murray park and the Albion Street car park would be sold for the value of the land and Ipox sold to someone who'd rent it back to r*ngers and of course the new owners would need to have a sustainable business plan and budget accordingly (with an alleged 60% of season tickets for the next 4 years having already been sold). As you said c*ltic would find it more dificult to attract players so their standard would decline but I think eventually it would lead to they type of situation we haven't had since the 80's where you could have 4 teams a season with a chance of winning the league which would increase the crowds for other clubs and in turn stimulate interest from the tv companies.

[bluto]

On their last accounts r*ngers assets were reported to be worth about £100M, I think the most likely outcome if a CVA is not agreed is an asset sale being forced. Some of the players like McGregor would be sold in the summer, probably Murray park and the Albion Street car park would be sold for the value of the land and Ipox sold to someone who'd rent it back to r*ngers and of course the new owners would need to have a sustainable business plan and budget accordingly (with an alleged 60% of season tickets for the next 4 years having already been sold).

So much has happened since they last posted accounts - which are now hopelessly overdue - that the figure you quote is UTTERLY meaningless.

IF McGRegor etc are still 'employed' by Rongers (in administration) then the current administrators need to flog them soon just to get funds to keep them limping along till the end of the season.

However, there is a strong suggestion (even on boards like follow follow) that they are actually employed by Rongers Group (one of Craigy's recently created companies ). So perhaps they can't be so easily flogged off, as you assume?

In much the same way as the other assets you mention have already been 'transferred' to another of wee Craigy's companies.

With the huge debt attached to any newco, (see my post above),how on earth will they be able to afford the sort of rent needed to fix the current problems of IBrokes and it's ongoing maintenance cost? Especially with No EUro matches for 3 years and, as you HAVE noticed no income cos that's already been flogged off - just as has the catering, and strips etc to JJB.

If you really ARE interested in such things there is a shed load of quality information and knowledgeable, informed opinion and conjecture on rangerstaxcase.com...... Which has the benefit of.... I wouldn't have to laboriously type tedious posts like this.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Do r*ngers not get £2-3 million per year from JJB Sports as well as having received £18m up front in year 1 of the 10 year deal? ... enough money to keep St Mirren going for 2 decades when you add up the total they get from the 10 year deal with JJB.