The Referendum Thread

[Drew]

So this week it's the UK's most respected newspaper - will I dig out what your fellow nationalists were saying about it last week?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So that's no to proof then. That's always the Nationalist way isn't it. Big on rhetoric and light on facts - add in some smears and hope no-one notices.

Spending has been increased Tony that's an absolute fact. And in health and education it's increased every single year the coalition has been in power and they've done this while cutting tax bills for everyone. There isn't a shred of evidence anywhere that in independent Scotland could do the same

Twat - its a yes to proof, unable to link to them. Cant you read?

And we love that you're so stupid, that you can't distinguish between criticism regarding the journalistic political leanings of a newspaper and using articles containing quotes from the UK's most respected think tanks to support an argument.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1c8c2992-cf6a-11e2-a050-00144feab7de.html#axzz2vreoBaSX

Absolute spending on NHS England may have increased but not nearly as fast as inflation and savings of £20 billion are still expected. You, of course, fail to mention the large increase in spending on alternative providers i.e. big business whose only reason for being involved with the NHS is to make profits.

With respect to conservative manifesto commitments, one of the main ones was not to institute top-down re-organisation of the NHS. I wonder how that one went! One of the ways in which they proposed to make savings was by reducing bureaucracy. The recent re-organisation of NHS England has produced new layers of bureaucracy and created confusion as to which organisation is responsible for which aspect of the NHS.

Thanks for trying guys but its like pissing in the wind with him

So this week it's the UK's most respected newspaper - will I dig out what your fellow nationalists were saying about it last week?

I see you cant actually read. Its hard to debate with someone who not only lies constantly but also cant read a simple sentence without managing to distort it in a reply...

[Stuart Dickson]

Twat - its a yes to proof, unable to link to them. Cant you read?

Thanks for trying guys but its like pissing in the wind with him

I see you cant actually read. Its hard to debate with someone who not only lies constantly but also cant read a simple sentence without managing to distort it in a reply...

Spending on healthcare and education has increased in the UK since 2010 - FACT.

Taxes have been cut in the UK since 2010 - FACT.

So where is the proof that the Nationalists could do the same in an Independent Scotland?

I keep waiting but all I get is Natsi smears and they talk about negative campaigning.

[bluto]

Twat - its a yes to proof, unable to link to them. Cant you read?

Thanks for trying guys but its like pissing in the wind with him

I see you cant actually read. Its hard to debate with someone who not only lies constantly but also cant read a simple sentence without managing to distort it in a reply...

I have to say, I'm glad you're experiencing how I've felt in this thread. I really have to leave you to it.

I hate admitting but, in this case, I admire Herr Dixon's indefatigability.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The links are there, you might want to start with that good old left wing rag, the daily mail which shows how and where cuts are being made or the FT which shows how they will continue after next Westminster election until 2020 at least. I neither have time or ability on my phone to post links at the moment. They also show up your "facts" as being incorrect which isn't really a surprise...

Cant get links to work but here's a summary;

Daily Mail on 26/06/2013 stated:-

George Osborne today put the government on a collision course with the unions as he vowed to scrap automatic pay rises in the public sector.

Antiquated pay deals mean salaries have continued to rise by up to seven per cent in Whitehall and across schools, hospitals, prisons and the police despite the government imposing a pay freeze.

But the Chancellor condemned the payouts for time servers as ‘deeply unfair’ as he unveiled an extra £11.5billion in spending cuts, including axing another 144,000 public sector jobs.

Mr Osborne used a Commons statement to impose cuts of up to 10 per cent on some of Whitehall’s biggest spending departments, with local councils, courts and environment among the hardest hit.

He also revealed a new package of welfare reforms, forcing foreign jobseekers to learn English or lose their benefits and making anyone who loses their job wait a week before receiving handouts.

Council tax will be frozen for the next two years, but funding for local government will fall by 10 per cent.

There will also be a new welfare cap limiting how much the government can spend on benefits including housing benefit, tax credits, disability benefits and pensioner benefits.

It will be set annually from April 2015 for four years.

Mr Osborne admitted families are still struggling, as set out his plan for austerity to last at least another three years.

There's also a graph explaining that NHS budget for England and Wales is rising by 0.1% - rising by less than inflation and including 1.8% that has to be used to fund social care which is a new addition to the NHS spending and will take some, but not all of the 10% cut from local government budgets. so in real terms its not an increase, its a cut. The Tory supporting Daily Mail also goes on to quote the IFS (it uses the prefix "respected" when referring to IFS as that's a prerequisite in westminster circles)

The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies sounded the alarm on tax rises after the next election, because further spending cuts would be too painful.

IFS head Paul Johnson said there was 'a good chance' whoever takes power in 2015 would bring in tax rises rather than pushing ahead with cuts.

'The scale of the cuts are really astonishing,' Mr Johnson said.

'If you really do carry on with the next two years up to 2017-18 as pencilled in that will result in a whole slew of government spending one third or more less than it was in 2010.

'So, if I was a betting man I would think there would be some kind of tax rises after the election.'

Oh and there's also an increase in National Insurance due for public sector workers - not sure how that equates to a tax cut?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Some stuff you might not have read in the mainstream media...

• Every year the Westminster Treasury deducts a sum from Scotland’s block funding grant to pay for a share of the UK’s rising debt, none of which Scotland ran up. In the latest figures the amount removed from Scotland budget was £4.02bn or 33% of Scotland’s deficit in 2012/13.
  
• 
  
  If Scotland had been an independent country for the past 33 years (as the UK debt mountain grew) Scotland’s higher revenues would have meant that we would not have had to borrow a single penny. In fact Scotland would by now have a cash surplus of at least £50bn. All of the UK debt was generated outwith Scotland.
  
  
• 
  
  Over 33 years Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK by paying interest on loans we didn’t take out. This enormous subsidy from Scotland adds up to nearly 72 thousand million pounds (at the point of writing this blog) and that subsidy is growing at approximately £127.00 per second (see above).
  
  

The press have ignored this, but there is no debate about the figures; they have been sourced from official government reports. Business for Scotland and the Jimmy Reid Foundation have published research linking to these reports that proves these figures to be correct.

[Stuart Dickson]

Cant get links to work but here's a summary;

Daily Mail on 26/06/2013 stated:-

George Osborne today put the government on a collision course with the unions as he vowed to scrap automatic pay rises in the public sector.

Antiquated pay deals mean salaries have continued to rise by up to seven per cent in Whitehall and across schools, hospitals, prisons and the police despite the government imposing a pay freeze.

But the Chancellor condemned the payouts for time servers as ‘deeply unfair’ as he unveiled an extra £11.5billion in spending cuts, including axing another 144,000 public sector jobs.

Mr Osborne used a Commons statement to impose cuts of up to 10 per cent on some of Whitehall’s biggest spending departments, with local councils, courts and environment among the hardest hit.

He also revealed a new package of welfare reforms, forcing foreign jobseekers to learn English or lose their benefits and making anyone who loses their job wait a week before receiving handouts.

Council tax will be frozen for the next two years, but funding for local government will fall by 10 per cent.

There will also be a new welfare cap limiting how much the government can spend on benefits including housing benefit, tax credits, disability benefits and pensioner benefits.

It will be set annually from April 2015 for four years.

Mr Osborne admitted families are still struggling, as set out his plan for austerity to last at least another three years.

There's also a graph explaining that NHS budget for England and Wales is rising by 0.1% - rising by less than inflation and including 1.8% that has to be used to fund social care which is a new addition to the NHS spending and will take some, but not all of the 10% cut from local government budgets. so in real terms its not an increase, its a cut. The Tory supporting Daily Mail also goes on to quote the IFS (it uses the prefix "respected" when referring to IFS as that's a prerequisite in westminster circles)

The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies sounded the alarm on tax rises after the next election, because further spending cuts would be too painful.

IFS head Paul Johnson said there was 'a good chance' whoever takes power in 2015 would bring in tax rises rather than pushing ahead with cuts.

'The scale of the cuts are really astonishing,' Mr Johnson said.

'If you really do carry on with the next two years up to 2017-18 as pencilled in that will result in a whole slew of government spending one third or more less than it was in 2010.

'So, if I was a betting man I would think there would be some kind of tax rises after the election.'

Oh and there's also an increase in National Insurance due for public sector workers - not sure how that equates to a tax cut?

And yet spending is up in every department.

The Tories stood on a platform of a public sector pay freeze. They are doing what they said they would and should be congratulated for it, especially since recent reports still have public sector employees earning 16% more than those in equivalent jobs in the private sector.

Now - any proof how an Independent Scotland would be able to increase spending in Healthcare and Education while cutting taxes?

[Stuart Dickson]

Some stuff you might not have read in the mainstream media...

• Every year the Westminster Treasury deducts a sum from Scotland’s block funding grant to pay for a share of the UK’s rising debt, none of which Scotland ran up. In the latest figures the amount removed from Scotland budget was £4.02bn or 33% of Scotland’s deficit in 2012/13.
• If Scotland had been an independent country for the past 33 years (as the UK debt mountain grew) Scotland’s higher revenues would have meant that we would not have had to borrow a single penny. In fact Scotland would by now have a cash surplus of at least £50bn. All of the UK debt was generated outwith Scotland.
• Over 33 years Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK by paying interest on loans we didn’t take out. This enormous subsidy from Scotland adds up to nearly 72 thousand million pounds (at the point of writing this blog) and that subsidy is growing at approximately £127.00 per second (see above).

The press have ignored this, but there is no debate about the figures; they have been sourced from official government reports. Business for Scotland and the Jimmy Reid Foundation have published research linking to these reports that proves these figures to be correct.

Oh FFS

1. Did you not notice that the RBS and Bank Of Scotland needed bailed out? So that's that one blown out the water.

2. Proof?

3. Even John Swinney doesn't deny that Scotland owes its share of the UK National Debt.

Can you not find links to these "official figures" - like I have done - to back up your arguments Tony? Quoting articles off Nationalist websites is like having a German quote sections of Mein Kampf.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

And yet spending is up in every department.

The Tories stood on a platform of a public sector pay freeze. They are doing what they said they would and should be congratulated for it, especially since recent reports still have public sector employees earning 16% more than those in equivalent jobs in the private sector.

Now - any proof how an Independent Scotland would be able to increase spending in Healthcare and Education while cutting taxes?

Spending is decreasing 10 % in communities, cabinet office, local gov, treasury, justice. Over 9% in defra, transport and work & pensions.

Stop talking shite, its getting embarrassing.

As for independence spending - your making that classic unionist mistake of assuming that an Independent Scotland would continue to make the same spending choices that uk does. Schoolboy error, albeit an english public school

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh FFS

1. Did you not notice that the RBS and Bank Of Scotland needed bailed out? So that's that one blown out the water.

2. Proof?

3. Even John Swinney doesn't deny that Scotland owes its share of the UK National Debt.

Can you not find links to these "official figures" - like I have done - to back up your arguments Tony? Quoting articles off Nationalist websites is like having a German quote sections of Mein Kampf.

The official figures are the GERS figures, this years were released this week. They are pretty easy to find.

How many times do we need to go over this myth about the banks? They were bailed out by numerous governments, uk actually paid little in comparison to US treasury.

ETA - a German quote sections of Mein Kampf. You'll need to explain what this post is meant to mean?

Edited March 14, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Westminster's hidden service charges for Scotland

The latest Government figures on Scotland’s economy contain billions in service charges for activities in the rest of the UK. As pointed out by Douglas Fraser, BBC Scotland Business and Economy Editor, this raises a challenge over measuring Scotland’s economy.

Despite claiming to present Scotland’s financial position, the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland figures include higher costs for defence, debt and administrative services that should not apply to Scotland.

The extra costs for services in the rest of the UK make Scotland’s finances appear worse than they actually are by billions of pounds every year. In the last 5 years these sectors cost Scotland £35 billion; yet Scotland did not receive or need £35 billion in services. Only in an independent Scotland will Scotland have full control over its own financial decisions and spending.

[Stuart Dickson]

Spending is decreasing 10 % in communities, cabinet office, local gov, treasury, justice. Over 9% in defra, transport and work & pensions.

Stop talking shite, its getting embarrassing.

As for independence spending - your making that classic unionist mistake of assuming that an Independent Scotland would continue to make the same spending choices that uk does. Schoolboy error, albeit an english public school

You made up those figures didn't you? The reason I know is cause they are all on that website I provided links to.

Pensions is up from £116.39BN in 2010 to £144.11Bn in 2014. There's no cuts there at all.

Welfare is up from £111.73Bn to £112.51Bn. No cuts

Defence is up from £42.55Bn to £46.61Bn. No cuts

The only area's where there have been cuts in spending since 2010 are in

Local Authority Spending is down from £173Bn in 2010 to £168Bn in 2014. I make that 2.9% ish - certainly nowhere near 10%

Government down from £15.93Bn to £14.28Bn

and what is termed as "Protection" which has seen a 10% cut since 2010 - that would cover the police, justice etc.

Now are you saying that you believe Scots who want independence would like to see those cuts reversed so that politicians and solicitors can trough it a bit more? Is that what you Natsi's mean by a fairer society? I guess that would tally with the fact that you've provided all those rich people with free prescriptions.

Your smear yesterday was aimed at Douglas Alexander and Alastair Darling who had, you said, made the claim that an Independent Scottish Government would have to cut spending on services and/or increase taxes. You claimed that was ironic. Fact is that the UK government hasn't cut spending at all - especially not in education or healthcare, and certainly not in pensions or welfare and they've done all of this whilst cutting everyone's tax bill.

An Independent Scotland could never do that.

[salmonbuddie]

You're all wasting your time, guys, he thrives on the attention hence the constant smear tactics. Leave him alone in his own delusional world and let the adults carry on the debate.

And bluto, are you telling us you're George Galloway to StuD's Saddam?

[saintnextlifetime]

A wee quote:

The UK are officially the most incompetent government on the planet.

Scottish Referendum 1979

1979 – UK National Debt £80 billion
2012- UK National Debt £1,065.billion

Increase in UK National Debt + £985.billion

1979 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £Nil billion
2012 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £476 billion

So the UK Treasury cultivate a staggering £1,461 billion loss for the people during the period 1979 – 2012 or $2,206billion dollars

But the loss to Scotland is proportionally MUCH greater

£96 billion is now Scotland increased share UK Debt
£476billion is Scotland’s lost Sovereign Fund Value

That’s a £572 billion poverty and austerity cost of UK Better Together!

But separately – There’s Better Together – US Style

The UK Treasury cultivate a staggering £1,461 billion loss for the UK people during period 1979 – 2012 or $2,206billion dollars if you prefer – because -

(a) US derivatives and War caused the UK debt explosion
( It was 100% US Economic /Foreign policy the UK were following and
© best of all, the UK borrow the money to service the debt it owes to the US owned World Bank – from, among others the Wall Street based Goldman Sachs.

So that’s perhaps why Goldman Sachs have just appointed an ex partner as the Bank of England’s new (US) Governor

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You made up those figures didn't you? The reason I know is cause they are all on that website I provided links to.

Pensions is up from £116.39BN in 2010 to £144.11Bn in 2014. There's no cuts there at all.

Welfare is up from £111.73Bn to £112.51Bn. No cuts

Defence is up from £42.55Bn to £46.61Bn. No cuts

The only area's where there have been cuts in spending since 2010 are in

Local Authority Spending is down from £173Bn in 2010 to £168Bn in 2014. I make that 2.9% ish - certainly nowhere near 10%

Government down from £15.93Bn to £14.28Bn

and what is termed as "Protection" which has seen a 10% cut since 2010 - that would cover the police, justice etc.

Now are you saying that you believe Scots who want independence would like to see those cuts reversed so that politicians and solicitors can trough it a bit more? Is that what you Natsi's mean by a fairer society? I guess that would tally with the fact that you've provided all those rich people with free prescriptions.

Your smear yesterday was aimed at Douglas Alexander and Alastair Darling who had, you said, made the claim that an Independent Scottish Government would have to cut spending on services and/or increase taxes. You claimed that was ironic. Fact is that the UK government hasn't cut spending at all - especially not in education or healthcare, and certainly not in pensions or welfare and they've done all of this whilst cutting everyone's tax bill.

An Independent Scotland could never do that.

My figures were taken from gideons budget as reported via the daily mail.

My figures were based on UK tory minister in government reported through right wing tory supporting newspaper. You have figures from a website, together with a reputation for talking shite and making up facts.

Maybe we should both leave it over the weekend and wait for next week's budget

[Stuart Dickson]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2463143/The-cost-living-rising-faster-UK-Europe-soaring-food-energy-bills.html

To simplify it, there may have been personal tax cuts, but the increase on essential items like energy and food are resulting in us being worse off.

Yep, but how would an Independent Scotland be immune to that. Scotland needs increased gas and oil prices to be viable as we saw yesterday given the Scottish government deficit.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Yep, but how would an Independent Scotland be immune to that. Scotland needs increased gas and oil prices to be viable as we saw yesterday given the Scottish government deficit.

You may have saw that...

What the figures actually say is that

Scotlands GDP was 1% higher than the UK.

Scotland has generated higher tax receipts than UK for the last 33 years.

Scotland is a wealthier country, ranked higher than UK ( which isn't actually a country)

A 1 year blip in figures results in a strange kind of glee amongst those scots who rejoice in telling us that we can't run our own affairs.

ETA- what we have instead is 1 in 6 (870,000) of the Scottish population living in poverty.

Edited March 14, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

Very interesting piece of drama just finished on BBC Radio 4 entitled, Dividing the Union. Scotland has just won independence and Salmond and Cameron are meeting face to face to decide how to divide the assets...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03xgsly

[Maboza]

Some stuff you might not have read in the mainstream media...

• Every year the Westminster Treasury deducts a sum from Scotland’s block funding grant to pay for a share of the UK’s rising debt, none of which Scotland ran up. In the latest figures the amount removed from Scotland budget was £4.02bn or 33% of Scotland’s deficit in 2012/13.
• If Scotland had been an independent country for the past 33 years (as the UK debt mountain grew) Scotland’s higher revenues would have meant that we would not have had to borrow a single penny. In fact Scotland would by now have a cash surplus of at least £50bn. All of the UK debt was generated outwith Scotland.
• Over 33 years Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK by paying interest on loans we didn’t take out. This enormous subsidy from Scotland adds up to nearly 72 thousand million pounds (at the point of writing this blog) and that subsidy is growing at approximately £127.00 per second (see above).

The press have ignored this, but there is no debate about the figures; they have been sourced from official government reports. Business for Scotland and the Jimmy Reid Foundation have published research linking to these reports that proves these figures to be correct.

And to take that 1 step further for the even more astounding info that certainly will go ignored by the press....

£375bn of the (£1.38tn) debt is owed to our own Bank of England which holds UK government bonds/gilts which they bought through Quantitative Easing. That equates to approx 27% of the UK national debt.

So from the £4.02bn removed from Scotland's account this year for servicing debt - approx. £1.08bn went to our own Bank of England. This cash has been accumulating in an account called APF and the BoE is then feeding this cash surplus back into..... HM Treasury. In other words - the Scottish tax-payer gets skinned again.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changes-to-cash-management-operations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20268679

Edited March 14, 2014 by Maboza

[Charlotte Saint]

And to take that 1 step further for the even more astounding info that certainly will go ignored by the press....

£375bn of the (£1.38tn) debt is owed to our own Bank of England which holds UK government bonds/gilts which they bought through Quantitative Easing. That equates to approx 27% of the UK national debt.

So from the £4.02bn removed from Scotland's account this year for servicing debt - approx. £1.08bn went to our own Bank of England. This cash has been accumulating in an account called APF and the BoE is then feeding this cash surplus back into..... HM Treasury. In other words - the Scottish tax-payer gets skinned again.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changes-to-cash-management-operations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20268679

Cue Dicko with some made up nonsense to refute this

[salmonbuddie]

On the EU front (here comes StuD on another of his rants), I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere - genuinely, z_a, what are your thoughts on this? It expresses in a much more learned way what I've always felt would be likely to happen in the event of independence.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/643/m05.htm

[salmonbuddie]

A thought occurred to me ( it's that time of the year). If we're being selfish by wanting independence and looking after ourselves while ignoring many others like us, how come it's all Thatcher's disciples telling us not to go there?

I've just realised why I don't like thinking.......

[zurich_allan]

On the EU front (here comes StuD on another of his rants), I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere - genuinely, z_a, what are your thoughts on this? It expresses in a much more learned way what I've always felt would be likely to happen in the event of independence.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/643/m05.htm

I'll keep this short and to the point as I'm not interested in entering into any more debate resulting in name calling etc.

I agree with a substantial amount of what's written at the link, especially on the likely first step of attempting to negotiate via an intergovernmental conference (a European Summit). And I also agree on the impracticality of Scottish citizens being removed as EU citizens, however there is still one definite flaw; that the other Member States CANNOT be forced to agree to treaty amendments and associated increases in Commissioners, Ministers etc.

In short, although it would be impractical to have EU citizenship removed from existing citizens, it would be ILLEGAL to enforce a treaty change if any Member State opposed the negotiations either before or during the process. In that circumstance, and again I am not saying it would happen, hopefully things would not get messy like that, it would HAVE to be a phased withdrawal (likely on the same terms as a Member State voluntarily leaving i.e. a 2-3 year withdrawal process on negotiated terms) pending re-entry, we cannot illegally force our way into a democratic union. AGAIN - I am not saying we would fail in our negotiations, it is a worst case scenario, but a real one that has not been mentioned at the link and should have been to give the full story and not a partial picture. I would debate and defend this point with any EU expert in the world, I am that confident in the accuracy of this point.

Aside from that, whilst I would change some of the terminology (and actually some of the informal wording used i.e. 'hardly'), I agree with most of the actual substance in terms of the likely procedures and timings etc. If you look back on the thread, I said pretty much the same thing about carefully planning the timing of negotiations and accession etc so as to allow a seemless transition as that would avoid many problems.

[salmonbuddie]

Thanks, z_a, I thought this was (mostly) agreeing with what you were saying.

I stopped offering opinions on the EU when you put your thoughts on here, I recognise when someone's speaking sense from a position of knowledge. If only others would, too...

[buddiecat]

And to take that 1 step further for the even more astounding info that certainly will go ignored by the press....

£375bn of the (£1.38tn) debt is owed to our own Bank of England which holds UK government bonds/gilts which they bought through Quantitative Easing. That equates to approx 27% of the UK national debt.

So from the £4.02bn removed from Scotland's account this year for servicing debt - approx. £1.08bn went to our own Bank of England. This cash has been accumulating in an account called APF and the BoE is then feeding this cash surplus back into..... HM Treasury. In other words - the Scottish tax-payer gets skinned again.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changes-to-cash-management-operations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20268679

where on these links does it say "some of this money has been taken from scottish taxpayers and they are getting skinned" this is just spin of a low order, we pay tax to hmrc, scotland is not independent and HM TREASURY is actually ours as well as the rest of the uks', so it's getting paid back to us (i.e. all uk taxpayers), i agree we might lose some of it to Ruk if we become independent = another reason to vote no