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8 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Leaving the EU was a democratic vote that, unfortunately IMO, was a massive mistake…

It wasn’t a democratic vote.

it was a “non binding referendum” which presented a stupidly close result, based on a  minimal representation of the GBP….  that was then accepted and implemented by corrupt and inept politicians of both big parties.

 

It WAS a mistake, though.  That bit is accurate.

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8 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Leaving the EU was a democratic vote that, unfortunately IMO, was a massive mistake BUT starting to separate the Scottish electorate from the UK when it is still a part of it is as ridiculous as a county/town/house saying it wasn't what they wanted.

Ach, straws will be grasped by both sides, I detest the bitterness it brings to the surface, verging on hatred, no, it is a deep hatred by many, so many votes will be placed for all the wrong reasons.

 

 

 

No having that FS. I know that it was a UK vote and I know Scotland is currently part of the UK. 
However, it is churlish to try to suggest that the will of an actual nation that is part of a political union, is just the same thing as the will of a town or even county of that union. 
Each tae thir ain though. 

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10 hours ago, Scott-Leeds said:


That’s a response from people who want to keep having votes until they get their desired result

It was said, in their own words

So , twice in 9 years is ok obviously, forgive me….. lets see the 2032 result as well? emoji2.png

 

9 hours ago, Slarti said:

It was called a "once in a generation" vote, not "lifetime" and that was repeatedly said to be the personal opinion of the person/people calling it that. It was also said at the time that that only applied if there were no major material changes - oh, look, Brexit.

After the union of the crowns in 1603 (not sure how long after, but obviously before 1707), there was apparently a vote in the Scottish Parliament about "merging" with England and it was rejected, maybe there shouldn't have been another.

Maybe there should only ever be one GE and we can just stick with the result. This every 5 years carry on is obviously just a joke, it should at least be for a generation/lifetime. There you go, Boris as PM for the rest of your life (or maybe his).

Out of curiosity, how long is a "generation" or a "lifetime" in your opinion and how do you arrive at your answer(s)?

Thank you Slarti for saving me the bother of responding to SL’s lazy post 👍.

But that’s just me being lazy. 

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Why can we not have Devo Max on the ballot paper ?

How much is there a burning desire to be fully independent and how much is an anti Tory vote.

If Labour got into power in 2 years with a whole devolution agenda to the regions and Scotland/Wales would people really want independence ?

Other thing I feel is that 10-15 of a left of center administration in an independent Scotland and with a charismatic(?) leader like Davidson leading a slightly right of center opposition what are the chances of Scotland voting that in ? Red Wall was never meant to happen ?

I think there are many deluding themselves that Scotand is fundamentally different to England. 

 

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8 hours ago, Slarti said:
8 hours ago, faraway saint said:
Leaving the EU was a democratic vote that, unfortunately IMO, was a massive mistake BUT starting to separate the Scottish electorate from the UK when it is still a part of it is as ridiculous as a county/town/house saying it wasn't what they wanted.
Ach, straws will be grasped by both sides, I detest the bitterness it brings to the surface, verging on hatred, no, it is a deep hatred by many, so many votes will be placed for all the wrong reasons.
 
 
 

Separating votes into "regions" is done almost everywhere and at almost every vote, why should that one be different?

I think there needs to be some context applied here FS.....the "no" campaign was very much centred around the EU membership debate (remember Cameron, Milliband and Clegg (supported by Brown) crossing the border to tell Scotland such despite saying it was solely a matter for the Scottish Electorate, "if Scotland leaves the UK it leaves the EU" but "remain in the UK and you'll remain in the EU". In that context I think it is more than fair to separate the "Scottish Electorate" in that particular debate despite the overall result.

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Why can we not have Devo Max on the ballot paper ?
How much is there a burning desire to be fully independent and how much is an anti Tory vote.
If Labour got into power in 2 years with a whole devolution agenda to the regions and Scotland/Wales would people really want independence ?
Other thing I feel is that 10-15 of a left of center administration in an independent Scotland and with a charismatic(?) leader like Davidson leading a slightly right of center opposition what are the chances of Scotland voting that in ? Red Wall was never meant to happen ?
I think there are many deluding themselves that Scotand is fundamentally different to England. 
 


Because no political party (that has a chance of being in power) is asking for that.

I think both options (indy and devo max) would trounce the status quo.

They are different enough that Scotland would probably have mainly left of centre governments with an occasional right of centre, while England (dragging Wales and NI with them) would have mainly right of centre with the occasional left of centre. Both centrist but with the emphasis on different things. Then again, maybe the UK Tories wold continue to follow the US Republicans and get more right wing. Who knows, it's all guesswork.
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10 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Leaving the EU was a democratic vote that, unfortunately IMO, was a massive mistake BUT starting to separate the Scottish electorate from the UK when it is still a part of it is as ridiculous as a county/town/house saying it wasn't what they wanted.

Ach, straws will be grasped by both sides, I detest the bitterness it brings to the surface, verging on hatred, no, it is a deep hatred by many, so many votes will be placed for all the wrong reasons.

 

 

1 hour ago, lenziebud said:

Why can we not have Devo Max on the ballot paper ?

Not unreasonable and if the Vow had been kept then we would be close to that now.

How much is there a burning desire to be fully independent and how much is an anti Tory vote.

 My Guess is that most of the vote is genuine rather than tactical.

If Labour got into power in 2 years with a whole devolution agenda to the regions and Scotland/Wales would people really want independence ?

a Federal System could work in my opinion if set up on a similar basis to the European Union.

 

 

 

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This has came about as the Tory Party has turned into the England National Party. 

Really I can't be bothered about the whole thing as been shown especially the last few years. Politics in the UK is corrupt as feck and now don't even try to hide it. Country ran by the media and mandates which were first came to the light in 1930 Germany. The world has flipped its lid

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1 minute ago, antrin said:

Interesting point, rascal….   :rolleyes:

 

Deep thought went into that Mr A.

Took ages to formulate.

Interesting read on the UK and Union on the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. 
 

Ireland were the first to want to leave the union and we know how that turned out. Scotland is attempting to achieve the same without conflict. 
 

 

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46 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I post a lot but not one single is really that interesting. 🤔 

Don’t be too hard on yourself. You have an interesting journey to and from work, sometimes in the rain, other times it is dry.

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14 hours ago, Scott-Leeds said:


That’s a response from people who want to keep having votes until they get their desired result

It was said, in their own words

So , twice in 9 years is ok obviously, forgive me….. lets see the 2032 result as well? emoji2.png

No man, woman or child has the right or power to demand once in a generation/ lifetime democratic votes. If it was ever said, it was as opinion not a factual view. 
 

We live in a democracy & democratic votes are down to the will of the people. The question on votes always comes down to the mandate, not throwaway comments during a campaign… like such comments as,  a no vote is the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU or Boris Johnson won’t ever be PM. 

Edited by bazil85
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If the Union isn’t a Union of Equals then  it isn’t what it says on the tin. It can / should only remain in place with the consent of the people within each unit. It could and should be able to be reviewed at any time by voters in the constituent parts.

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3 hours ago, Slarti said:


 

 


Because no political party (that has a chance of being in power) is asking for that.

I think both options (indy and devo max) would trounce the status quo.

They are different enough that Scotland would probably have mainly left of centre governments with an occasional right of centre, while England (dragging Wales and NI with them) would have mainly right of centre with the occasional left of centre. Both centrist but with the emphasis on different things. Then again, maybe the UK Tories wold continue to follow the US Republicans and get more right wing. Who knows, it's all guesswork.

 

Only the SNP and Greens want a vote ?

I think Devo Max would trounce all the other options but I agree that status quo would be last.

I think it might surprise you over a period of time where Scottish politics would go. Greed and self interest with power applies in Scotland every bit as much as England. Much as Scotland likes to think its morally superior we actually aren't ??

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2 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

I think Devo Max would trounce all the other options but I agree that status quo would be last.

I think it might surprise you over a period of time where Scottish politics would go.

Greed and self interest with power applies in Scotland every bit as much as England.

Much as Scotland likes to think its morally superior we actually aren't ??

I believe that Scotland could flourish as an independent country and in the EU with their own seat at the top table.

Looking at other small countries who are successful, why ever should we question that?

Should we be independent or remain in the present Union is what is being debated (not could we). Some have an ideological commitment to one or other of the present binary choices whilst some see a need to introduce a Federal System with Devi Max. 
 

Nothing wrong with giving the people in Scotland an opportunity to look at the arguments before making a decision to remain or leave  imo. To say we can’t takes us back to England acting as the senior partner or a colonial power. 
 

I suspect that post independence that there would be a rebalancing of the leading political parties. Centre left would be my guess but also a stronger right.

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38 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Only the SNP and Greens want a vote ?

I think Devo Max would trounce all the other options but I agree that status quo would be last.

I think it might surprise you over a period of time where Scottish politics would go. Greed and self interest with power applies in Scotland every bit as much as England. Much as Scotland likes to think its morally superior we actually aren't ??

They were voted in on an "Independence" ticket and have a majority in Holyrood even with the "AMS" system......it's an even bigger majority when you look at Scottish MP spread within Westminster.

I don't disagree re Devo Max but let's be honest, that would take placing trust in Westminster and they have pretty well reneged on "The Vow".

Edited by WeeBud
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44 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Only the SNP and Greens want a vote ?

I think Devo Max would trounce all the other options but I agree that status quo would be last.

I think it might surprise you over a period of time where Scottish politics would go. Greed and self interest with power applies in Scotland every bit as much as England. Much as Scotland likes to think its morally superior we actually aren't ??

Only the libdems want anything like DevoMax, therefore it has no chance of being on the ballot paper.  Labour and the Tories want the staus quo but know that DevoMax would probably beat it, SNP and Greens want independence but know that DevoMax would probably beat it, LibDems want federalism (almost the same as DevoMax) but have no power to get it on the paper.  To me, DevoMax would just lead to independence anyway after a couple of decades, so why wait.

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4 minutes ago, Slarti said:

Only the libdems want anything like DevoMax, therefore it has no chance of being on the ballot paper.  Labour and the Tories want the staus quo but know that DevoMax would probably beat it, SNP and Greens want independence but know that DevoMax would probably beat it, LibDems want federalism (almost the same as DevoMax) but have no power to get it on the paper.  To me, DevoMax would just lead to independence anyway after a couple of decades, so why wait.

I actually think, if Devo max was on the ballot, the independence vote would be assured as most of those who would vote for DM would have voted remain therefore diluting the remain vote.

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