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If we stay up... Give us the family stand back.

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1 hour ago, DumboBud said:

Baz,

Don’t try and misquote me. At no time have I said GLS is a liar. You throw that word about in a way that isn’t helpful to take the discussion forward it polarises a debate that really should be about a range of opinions. 

The decision and any statements that I’ve quoted are the clubs not GLS’s. 

So please stop inaccurately posting that I’ve ever claimed him to be a liar.

When it comes to VAT in this instance it is relatively simple.... it goes to the government not the player budget.

Now that you have that fact you can maybe start to move forward and come to your own conclusion about the figures out in the public domain by the club. (Not GLS!) 

Its usually me he throws his stupid, and found out claims of "Liar" at. He simply doesnt want to conceded that Scott announced to three meetings of buy the buds and in a Herald interview that he would quote "never, like the previous board would we give an extra stand to the old firm without first consulting the fans/smisa members"

and as we all know this turned out to be a false statement and as is defined as a 'Lie'

"a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one. ... to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to ..."

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30 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

The only time I can remember seeing a £130k or there abouts figure was regarding the ‘up to’ income the club said last summer. That was generally accepted if we had a total of four home games against those two clubs (which we obviously didn’t). Are you referring to something different? 

i would say if three games has given us a lift equalling 10% player budget then the up to of a ‘six figure sum’ sounds comfortably right. 

Glad to hear you’re not questioning GLS 10% claim but it sounds like you might have made the mistake regarding what the club statement on the six figure sum related to? Unless they have released another statement I have missed 

The six figure claim, was right at the start when the decision was announced, and it certainly wasn’t an ‘up to’ figure as you state above, or else it could have been £1 and the statement would have been accurate!

You now inserting  the words ‘up to’ is revisionism in the extreme  

The 10% claim, I think is unlikely but without knowing the player budget before and after it is difficult to know what to believe and certainly not enough for me to claim it was a lie. 

Your post isn’t exactly the apology that I’m due. 

Do you now accept that I haven’t called GLS a liar - not a difficult question. 

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9 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

The six figure claim, was right at the start when the decision was announced, and it certainly wasn’t an ‘up to’ figure as you state above, or else it could have been £1 and the statement would have been accurate!

You now inserting  the words ‘up to’ is revisionism in the extreme  

The 10% claim, I think is unlikely but without knowing the player budget before and after it is difficult to know what to believe and certainly not enough for me to claim it was a lie. 

Your post isn’t exactly the apology that I’m due. 

Do you now accept that I haven’t called GLS a liar - not a difficult question. 

I’m not apologising when you have more or less said you think he’s lying again with your ‘unlikely comment’ you’re making every attempt to stop short of saying it but the only way questioning a clear comment form him can be interpreted is that you don’t believe him. 

as for the six figure sum, as I have said I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to, if it was the chat at the beginning of the season regarding a six figure sum for the arrangement & not regarding the 10% fine but it still breaks down to you calling someone at the club a liar.

Last summer when the statement came out they knew the ticket prices & they knew the maximum number of additional fans, nothing changed in that space. I see no fundamental issue  in this arrangement delivering over a six figure sum when you factor in all variables. 

I’ll say it again unless you have proof of false statements from GLS, the BoD or anyone else at the club you’re making a claim of lies from SMFC without foundation. Excuse me but I will defend my club as I would hope other fans would as well

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9 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I’m not apologising when you have more or less said you think he’s lying again with your ‘unlikely comment’ you’re making every attempt to stop short of saying it but the only way questioning a clear comment form him can be interpreted is that you don’t believe him. 

as for the six figure sum, as I have said I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to, if it was the chat at the beginning of the season regarding a six figure sum for the arrangement & not regarding the 10% fine but it still breaks down to you calling someone at the club a liar.

Last summer when the statement came out they knew the ticket prices & they knew the maximum number of additional fans, nothing changed in that space. I see no fundamental issue  in this arrangement delivering over a six figure sum when you factor in all variables. 

I’ll say it again unless you have proof of false statements from GLS, the BoD or anyone else at the club you’re making a claim of lies from SMFC without foundation. Excuse me but I will defend my club as I would hope other fans would as well

Baz, 

I’ve tried my best to reduce the heat in this and not throw about names but take a breath man. 

You are allowed to put your head up and think before you post. 

 The whole debate kicked off with the announcement that a six figure sum would be realised by not having a family stand for the OF games. To try and deny this makes me worry for you. 

The weather forecaster thinks it will rain tomorrow..... I think it unlikely....... I’m not accusing them of lying!

As you said yourself above, I stopped short of calling him a liar, that was deliberate, I view the use of that term very seriously and if I were to use it, it would be only after careful consideration and when it could be fully justified. You however, seem determined to try and attach the term to anything I’ve posted.

That isn’t on.

You seem determined to look at everything as an attack. 

It is posts like the one quoted above that only seem intent on discouraging healthy, debate. 

Not everything is an attack that need to be defended.

 

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3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

So you agree he has absolutely no requirement to share the details with us & your claim of ‘spin’ remains unfounded & without evidence. Rest is just irrelevant deflection. 

I said he's provided no evidence to back what he said in April - do you disagree? Y/N

Until he does produce detailed information on the subject I will remain sceptical about that 10% claim - and I'm not alone in that. :rolleyes:

I've shown he has a history of posting facts about what goes on in the boardroom on here when it suits - "he was outed" at the time by one of the mods. :zipit

As usual we've descended within a couple of posts into you replying hysterically with shameless subservience to GLS but no actual substance just trying to twist words, if you manage to come up with something beyond this I will reply until then.....:byebye

Edited by Bud the Baker

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11 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

Baz, 

I’ve tried my best to reduce the heat in this and not throw about names but take a breath man. 

You are allowed to put your head up and think before you post. 

 The whole debate kicked off with the announcement that a six figure sum would be realised by not having a family stand for the OF games. To try and deny this makes me worry for you. 

The weather forecaster thinks it will rain tomorrow..... I think it unlikely....... I’m not accusing them of lying!

As you said yourself above, I stopped short of calling him a liar, that was deliberate, I view the use of that term very seriously and if I were to use it, it would be only after careful consideration and when it could be fully justified. You however, seem determined to try and attach the term to anything I’ve posted.

That isn’t on.

You seem determined to look at everything as an attack. 

It is posts like the one quoted above that only seem intent on discouraging healthy, debate. 

Not everything is an attack that need to be defended.

 

I am not denying the initial statement from st Mirren, I was simply clarifying where you were picking up from. You’ll notice this thread only started towards the end of the season. 

The difference between a weather forecast & your claim is it’s after the event (or more accurately represents what you’re saying is an impossibility given your chat on tickets/ seats) its more like someone saying ‘it rained yesterday I was there’ and you saying ‘I don’t believe you’ 

I don’t see my response as an attack, I see it on defending the club I support & the people running it. 

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3 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I said he's provided no evidence to back what he said in April - do you disagree? Y/N

nope, have I ever claimed he did provide evidence? Y/N

Until he does produce detailed information on the subject I will remain sceptical about that 10% claim - and I'm not alone in that. :rolleyes:

So in other words you believe there is a chance he has lied? Y/N

I've shown he has a history of posting facts about what goes on in the boardroom on here when it suits - "he was outed" at the time by one of the mods. :zipit

Deflection, don’t see how this is relevant at all. If you were critical of a company & then ended up the chairman of that company do you think your responsibility/ behaviours regarding secrecy would change? Y/N 

As usual we've descended within a couple of posts into you replying hysterically with no actual substance just trying to twist words, if you manage to come up with something beyond this I will reply until then.....:byebye

you have zero substance to think he has lied regarding the 10% uplift in budget? Y/N 

i am not claiming to have any I’m simply believing our chairman who has full access to the accounts & does not benefit at all from lying  

All over old ground, it won’t change anything here. I know people are hurting but they just have to accept the arrangement. 

Can tell it’s been a slow transfer summer so far. :lol:

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5 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

 

I don’t see my response as an attack, I see it on defending the club I support & the people running it. 

When you falsely accuse me of calling someone a liar that is an attack. 

When someone posts on here saying that they disagree with a club decision, that isn’t necessarily an attack, that can be a spark for debate and discussion. 

When that spark for debate is responded to by escalating immediately into, you are calling someone a liar that isn’t helpful for anyone. 

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21 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

When you falsely accuse me of calling someone a liar that is an attack. 

When someone posts on here saying that they disagree with a club decision, that isn’t necessarily an attack, that can be a spark for debate and discussion. 

When that spark for debate is responded to by escalating immediately into, you are calling someone a liar that isn’t helpful for anyone. 

You have openly said you are skeptics about GLS claim & don’t believe the officials at the club (potentially came from GLS as well) regarding the six figure sum as it wouldn’t be possible given the ticket prices/ seats & deductions. Or have I got this summary incorrect?

Can you explain how someone can hold these views without them relating to people fabricating truth? 

Again I refer back to you disagreeing (or let’s say sceptical) about a statement of fact after the event. After the event GLS has stated it had increased our player budget by 10%. He said this with what we can only assume is full access to the income generated & budget given.

It isn’t like you weather example because that’s speculation on the future which would be absolutely fine. 

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1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

You have openly said you are skeptics about GLS claim & don’t believe the officials at the club (potentially came from GLS as well) regarding the six figure sum as it wouldn’t be possible given the ticket prices/ seats & deductions. Or have I got this summary incorrect?

Can you explain how someone can hold these views without them relating to people fabricating truth? 

Again I refer back to you disagreeing (or let’s say sceptical) about a statement of fact after the event. After the event GLS has stated it had increased our player budget by 10%. He said this with what we can only assume is full access to the income generated & budget given.

It isn’t like you weather example because that’s speculation on the future which would be absolutely fine. 

It is quite simple how I can hold the view that the six figure sum is incorrect while not and never have accused GLS of lying as you keep stating I am. 

I will take you through this slowly:

The club announced that the south stand ST’s wouldn’t include the OF games before the start of sales of ST. Part of the information given out at that time was that it would produce a six figure increase in revenue. 

At that time there were some known facts to both the club and the supporters. These were: The capacity of the stand, the match ticket prices, the ST ticket prices and the fact VAT is due on ticket sales.

There were a number of unknowns:

How many STs would be sold for the south stand at a rate lower than if it included all games, how many ST holders would take up the offer of a reduced price substitute ticket for the OF games, how many games would take place against the OF, how many OF supporters would buy tickets for the South Stand and what proportion of these would be concessions. 

Neither the Board nor any fans could know definitively the answer to any of these questions. So everything at that point was an estimate  

What I did was look at a best case scenario for these with the exception of only including 3 not 4 games against the OF and found that the resulting outcome was such that it would mean of if any of the best case scenarios didn’t play out then a six figure sum couldn’t be achieved. 

Does that mean I believe that GLS lied? No it means that the estimates that were done, by whoever, were in my opinion extremely optimistic, and very unlikely to be achievable. 

But uncannily enough it is exactly like the weather example where the weather person estimates that it will rain tomorrow but I disagree and think it will be dry. Nobody is lying in that scenario. 

Hopefully you will now agree that I am not and haven’t accused GLS of lying. 

This isn’t a black and white right or wrong issue, it is more subtle and nuanced than that, please stop trying to turn it into liars v truth tellers. 

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Ffs its a no-brainer...on an old firm matchday if they dont give them the tickets then your lucky if 200 folk in it...give them it and 1400 in it...what the f**ks the point sitting with 1200 empty seats when u can make money...

Edited by gstretchuk

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41 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

It is quite simple how I can hold the view that the six figure sum is incorrect while not and never have accused GLS of lying as you keep stating I am. 

I will take you through this slowly:

The club announced that the south stand ST’s wouldn’t include the OF games before the start of sales of ST. Part of the information given out at that time was that it would produce a six figure increase in revenue. 

At that time there were some known facts to both the club and the supporters. These were: The capacity of the stand, the match ticket prices, the ST ticket prices and the fact VAT is due on ticket sales.

There were a number of unknowns:

How many STs would be sold for the south stand at a rate lower than if it included all games, how many ST holders would take up the offer of a reduced price substitute ticket for the OF games, how many games would take place against the OF, how many OF supporters would buy tickets for the South Stand and what proportion of these would be concessions. 

Neither the Board nor any fans could know definitively the answer to any of these questions. So everything at that point was an estimate  

What I did was look at a best case scenario for these with the exception of only including 3 not 4 games against the OF and found that the resulting outcome was such that it would mean of if any of the best case scenarios didn’t play out then a six figure sum couldn’t be achieved. 

Does that mean I believe that GLS lied? No it means that the estimates that were done, by whoever, were in my opinion extremely optimistic, and very unlikely to be achievable. 

But uncannily enough it is exactly like the weather example where the weather person estimates that it will rain tomorrow but I disagree and think it will be dry. Nobody is lying in that scenario. 

Hopefully you will now agree that I am not and haven’t accused GLS of lying. 

This isn’t a black and white right or wrong issue, it is more subtle and nuanced than that, please stop trying to turn it into liars v truth tellers. 

So believe me I understand what you're saying but I'm afraid it still boils down to you calling into question people at our clubs integrity (or is it competence?). If we concentrate only on the six figure sum for now (we'll ignore your inability to let this go and that at very best you're nitpicking over a few thousand pound). From the time that statement was given until now, us fans haven't been privy to any new information regarding your list of unknowns. Like it or not you're STILL saying the club said something last year that you don't believe with no new info.

You might simply just think they have got this wrong but to go on and say you've looked at 'best case scenarios' and the numbers basically say this was never right is you either calling them liars or claiming the people making these statements with likely full information regarding the finances of our football club have not been competent enough to do basic calculation (or it's been signed off to give a finger in the air figure which anyone with half a brain would know the small number of St Moan fans would jump over). I'm not sure which is worth but the fact remains you have nothing bar your own calculations without knowing figures to back this up. (do you know a solid figure for VAT, concession vs full paying adults, if we estimated in more money due to increased catering/ advertising based on footfall for examples? All areas where revenue numbers can get muddied) 

Let's not forget you have used specific expressions like "The amount of claimed income has been shown many times to be overstated"  A statement that is just completely false 

"Unless we somehow sold more tickets than we have seats in the South Stand and worked some scam with the taxman to avoid VAT the additional benefit to the club cannot be six figures" A quote that says, a club statement from last summer is an impossibility and is therefore either a lie or incompetency. This is again completely untrue, see above regarding how the income could be six figures, you don't have the details required to make a claim that it's an impossibility. 

You've also asked specific questions like "Do you really believe that?" in response to me defending the club and specifically highlighting the 10%. You must realise that the opposite of believing what GLS has said is true is believing it is a lie?

As I have said this is all old ground. Some fans just can't accept the decision but it won't change until we get more SMFC bums on seats. I have no doubt this will be regurgitated many more times and have no issue with fans being opposed to the call. I do however take issue with unfounded claims of lies/ incompetency (or both?) from a BoD that are moving us to fan ownership and have been a massive part in how positive the outlook for the club is right now.  

 

 

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Baz, this is really tiresome. 

Competence and integrity are entirely different things, you wouldn’t call someone that is incompetent a liar. 

Well maybe you would as it is your go to word these days. 

And for the record I don’t accept your hypothesis that it either incompetence or lack of integrity, you do have a love or trying to label things in the most pejorative way possible and attempt to turn things into black or white.  

I suppose your statement that I’m nit picking over a few thousand pounds will be as close as I get to you conceding that it isn’t a six figure sum. I wonder how you did your calculations!

As for a figure for VAT I think 20% is a nice round figure but maybe it is different in your world. 

You have also misquoted me again about the question ‘ do you really believe that’ to misquote me once is careless, to do it a second time after it was pointed out to you makes me think that you have an agenda that the facts can’t get in the way of.

Apparently you have no issue with fans being opposed to the decision - this and other threads, and the way you suggest that any examination of the facts means that the competence or honesty of the board / club is brought into question definitely tells a different story. 

You still haven’t shown anything that points to me calling GLS a liar at any time, yet still persist in trying to connect me to using that label and that I believe is indefensible. 

At one point I thought a reasonable discussion on the merits of this could take place, but your tactics have won, let’s close down discussion and all be happy clappers. 

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6 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

Baz, this is really tiresome. 

Competence and integrity are entirely different things, you wouldn’t call someone that is incompetent a liar. 

Well maybe you would as it is your go to word these days. 

And for the record I don’t accept your hypothesis that it either incompetence or lack of integrity, you do have a love or trying to label things in the most pejorative way possible and attempt to turn things into black or white.  

I suppose your statement that I’m nit picking over a few thousand pounds will be as close as I get to you conceding that it isn’t a six figure sum. I wonder how you did your calculations!

As for a figure for VAT I think 20% is a nice round figure but maybe it is different in your world. 

You have also misquoted me again about the question ‘ do you really believe that’ to misquote me once is careless, to do it a second time after it was pointed out to you makes me think that you have an agenda that the facts can’t get in the way of.

Apparently you have no issue with fans being opposed to the decision - this and other threads, and the way you suggest that any examination of the facts means that the competence or honesty of the board / club is brought into question definitely tells a different story. 

You still haven’t shown anything that points to me calling GLS a liar at any time, yet still persist in trying to connect me to using that label and that I believe is indefensible. 

At one point I thought a reasonable discussion on the merits of this could take place, but your tactics have won, let’s close down discussion and all be happy clappers. 

If you read his posts, and I have until recently when I popped him onto ignore, he has  habit of using the same words/phrases throughput many of his posts.

Shows, IMO, a lack of ability to comprehend other posts and, like a record that is stuck, repeat. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Pityme said:

So if it might boost the budget by 20% why not give the old bigots all four stands, or at least the main stand as well and the great and good there can sit in the front row of the west stand?

thats another £250k at least according to Scott.

Ridiculous and bitter

2 hours ago, proudtobeabuddy said:

I'll say it again , we're consistently told that we're the best supporters in the world, 12th man and all that... a credit till the club. Until we're play Rangers or Celtic then ye can get tae! all for a few extra quid...

That 'best support' can all get a seat if they want one for these games. Onus is on us to increase our crowds so we can't give them two stands. The 'few quid' also could be the difference between top flight and second tier football.

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1 hour ago, DumboBud said:

Baz, this is really tiresome. 

Competence and integrity are entirely different things, you wouldn’t call someone that is incompetent a liar. 

Well maybe you would as it is your go to word these days. 

And for the record I don’t accept your hypothesis that it either incompetence or lack of integrity, you do have a love or trying to label things in the most pejorative way possible and attempt to turn things into black or white.  

I suppose your statement that I’m nit picking over a few thousand pounds will be as close as I get to you conceding that it isn’t a six figure sum. I wonder how you did your calculations!

As for a figure for VAT I think 20% is a nice round figure but maybe it is different in your world. 

You have also misquoted me again about the question ‘ do you really believe that’ to misquote me once is careless, to do it a second time after it was pointed out to you makes me think that you have an agenda that the facts can’t get in the way of.

Apparently you have no issue with fans being opposed to the decision - this and other threads, and the way you suggest that any examination of the facts means that the competence or honesty of the board / club is brought into question definitely tells a different story. 

You still haven’t shown anything that points to me calling GLS a liar at any time, yet still persist in trying to connect me to using that label and that I believe is indefensible. 

At one point I thought a reasonable discussion on the merits of this could take place, but your tactics have won, let’s close down discussion and all be happy clappers. 

I fully believe it would be a six figure sum based on all the information available to us including a statement from a person with full access to our accounts and the likely figure 10% of the player budget equates to. Is there a 100% chance I am right on that, course not but my point is you seem to struggle to let go for what in anyone's books is a considerable amount of money.

I haven't miss-quoted you, here's your post below. feel free to correct me regarding what you meant by 'Do you really believe that?' when it's in direct response to a post from me on the 10%. I make no mention of the six figure sum but you still go on to talk about 'inflated' or' hopelessly optimistic figures' for a statement released after the three games had taken place and the annual player budget was known.  

As for posts from you that hint at GLS being a liar, we know you have stopped short of saying it but how about just a simple question. Was GLS being truthful when he told us that the arrangement had allowed for a 10% increase in our player budget? Feel free to say you don't know, it's of course just saying you think he could be a liar... Bad enough IMO. Also still waiting for proof that the figures have been "shown many times to be overstated"

image.thumb.png.61a0bba83632214aa5f25bdf6046c075.png

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2 hours ago, faraway saint said:

If you read his posts, and I have until recently when I popped him onto ignore, he has  habit of using the same words/phrases throughput many of his posts.

Shows, IMO, a lack of ability to comprehend other posts and, like a record that is stuck, repeat. 

Probably a good thing this poster has put me on ignore given he has shown a complete lack of capacity to understand simple points. Like me fully able to comprehend the benefits of VAR (on another post) & people wanting to have it in place, just not sharing that opinion (also doesn't understand that's allowed). 

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32 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Ridiculous and bitter

That 'best support' can all get a seat if they want one for these games. Onus is on us to increase our crowds so we can't give them two stands. The 'few quid' also could be the difference between top flight and second tier football.

Not going to happen soon. To pricey for some for what's on show. 

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I fully believe it would be a six figure sum based on all the information available to us including a statement from a person with full access to our accounts and the likely figure 10% of the player budget equates to. Is there a 100% chance I am right on that, course not but my point is you seem to struggle to let go for what in anyone's books is a considerable amount of money.
I haven't miss-quoted you, here's your post below. feel free to correct me regarding what you meant by 'Do you really believe that?' when it's in direct response to a post from me on the 10%. I make no mention of the six figure sum but you still go on to talk about 'inflated' or' hopelessly optimistic figures' for a statement released after the three games had taken place and the annual player budget was known.  
As for posts from you that hint at GLS being a liar, we know you have stopped short of saying it but how about just a simple question. Was GLS being truthful when he told us that the arrangement had allowed for a 10% increase in our player budget? Feel free to say you don't know, it's of course just saying you think he could be a liar... Bad enough IMO. Also still waiting for proof that the figures have been "shown many times to be overstated"
image.thumb.png.61a0bba83632214aa5f25bdf6046c075.png
So you now admit he didn't call GLS a liar yet you accused him of it.

Time for your unreserved apology to the man now!

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15 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

So you now admit he didn't call GLS a liar yet you accused him of it.

Time for your unreserved apology to the man now! emoji14.png

I fully believe someone using the expression "do you really believe that" and then going on to say that the clubs quoted incomes aren't possible is calling out GLS & anyone else involved in these statements dishonest. Hence why I have called him out on it, not too difficult to understand I thought. 

DB seems unwilling to take the plunge and give a straight view on it which is why I have asked the very clear question. He thinks it isn't black and white but tbh it really is. 10% increase in player budget can be calculated as a tangible figure., its either a yeh or nay to thinking GLS comment is truthful.  

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So if it might boost the budget by 20% why not give the old bigots all four stands, or at least the main stand as well and the great and good there can sit in the front row of the west stand?
thats another £250k at least according to Scott.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^
seething

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I fully believe someone using the expression "do you really believe that" and then going on to say that the clubs quoted incomes aren't possible is calling out GLS & anyone else involved in these statements dishonest. Hence why I have called him out on it, not too difficult to understand I thought. 
DB seems unwilling to take the plunge and give a straight view on it which is why I have asked the very clear question. He thinks it isn't black and white but tbh it really is. 10% increase in player budget can be calculated as a tangible figure., its either a yeh or nay to thinking GLS comment is truthful.  
I've been following the "discussion".
You owe him an apology but instead are resorting to your default misdirection and spin!

Just say sorry.
He deserves it.
You owe it to him.
You might even feel better for it.

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