barrhead saint Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, div said: The original and current BTB deal would have seen SMiSA eventually own 71% of the shares. A majority shareholding. The proposed new deal will see SMiSA owning 51% of the shares. A majority shareholding. 51% fan ownership is the model that the whole of German football is based on. Owning 71% or 51% makes little difference. SMiSA will have control over the football club. In the same way that Gordon currently has control. The major decisions that are listed as all parties having to agree on are all the sort of things that you’d absolutely expect all SMiSA members to be consulted on such as changing the name of the club, putting in AstroTurf, issuing new shares and taking out massive loans. Bringing fan ownership in 5 years early isn’t really the big selling point here IMO. Fan ownership will happen with or without Kibble and I don’t personally think it will actually take as long as 5 more years anyway. The crux of this IMO is for the members to decide whether Kibble bring something worthwhile to the party or not. I think that's it, what exactly do the club get from this ? I've read we will get the benefits of Kibbles vast experience. What experience do they have in running a football club ? Edited January 30, 2020 by barrhead saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood buddie Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 7 hours ago, portmahomack saint said: Contrary to a well held belief Turkeys don't actually vote for Christmas How can Turkey's vote when they cant reach the booths?🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kombibuddie Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, div said: The crux of this IMO is for the members to decide whether Kibble bring something worthwhile to the party or not. SMISA & Kibble can collaborate and still bring that something to the party without Kibble buying into the Fans Buyout of St Mirren FC. As owners of 71% shares, SMISA will have more representatives on the Club BOD. As owners of 51% shares, SMISA will have 2 less representatives on the Club BOD. The fans, who've paid into this will effectively have less of a say in the running of the club & there is no guarantee the Kibble reps on the BOD will be St Mirren fans. Totally defeats the objective on what BTB was sold on (imho). SMISA will have the funds in 3 years under the current model to be able to complete the purchase. We don't need to be co-owners with Kibble for us to have a successful partnership with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 25 minutes ago, barrhead saint said: I think that's it, what exactly do the club get from this ? I've read we will get the benefits of Kibbles vast experience. What experience do they have in running a football club ? What experience do fans have of running a football club. They do have the business experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truesaint Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, barrhead saint said: I think that's it, what exactly do the club get from this ? I've read we will get the benefits of Kibbles vast experience. What experience do they have in running a football club ? None, but would expect them to be able to add value to certain business elements of running a football club and at least would be expecting an improvement on marketing, PR and comms. If they can enhance, improve, reduce costs, streamline in other areas then fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 The original and current BTB deal would have seen SMiSA eventually own 71% of the shares. A majority shareholding. The proposed new deal will see SMiSA owning 51% of the shares. A majority shareholding. 51% fan ownership is the model that the whole of German football is based on. Owning 71% or 51% makes little difference. SMiSA will have control over the football club. In the same way that Gordon currently has control. The major decisions that are listed as all parties having to agree on are all the sort of things that you’d absolutely expect all SMiSA members to be consulted on such as changing the name of the club, putting in AstroTurf, issuing new shares and taking out massive loans. Bringing fan ownership in 5 years early isn’t really the big selling point here IMO. Fan ownership will happen with or without Kibble and I don’t personally think it will actually take as long as 5 more years anyway. The crux of this IMO is for the members to decide whether Kibble bring something worthwhile to the party or not. The issue is the power a major shareholding of over 25% gives to Kibble!They will be able to influence how the club is run, that's a matter of fact.Can anyone point me to Smisa saying "Third Party Ownership" is a good thing in the BtB campaign?No... you won't find it, in fact you will find the exact opposite as the reason most signed up to BtB was because it secured the overwhelming ownership of all shares with St Mirren fans.Now Smisa are saying "yeah we changed our minds, fan ownership isnt our priority anymore" Who the f**k asked Smisa to go find a Third Party Owner... was it the people who own Smisa the members..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 10 hours ago, buddiecat said: As is their usual method of operation, the SMiSA board have informed members of proposals at the very last minute allowed which gives members as little time as possible to mull over the proposal. What is over a week not long enough to make your mind up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 9 hours ago, cockles1987 said: Over 3 weeks away, my definition of last minute must be different than BC,s. A vote after a General Election is called can be one day more than is getting suggested here. at the last minute allowed, he said, oh twisted one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 9 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: How are they going to do that? Being able to block something is not the same as being able to push your own ideas/agenda through. If SMiSA already have about 30% then they could block anything that they feel is detrimental to the club. You'll be claiming next that Kibble will ban custard creams and bent bananas from the stadium. It's a form of trading. In order to get something you want you block initiatives from others until you get what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 Looks like the majority of 'considered' smisa members have seen through this money grab by Kibble and their associates within the club and it's set to crash & burn.Just like the last time Kibble pulled this stunt with Atkinson's 10000 failed attempts. Kibble have previous@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 15 hours ago, waldorf34 said: Looks like a done deal Its called conditioning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 16 hours ago, TPAFKATS said: Yes, however couldn't they work with smfc to get their clients access and experience in most of this without spending the money to purchase the shares? I accept that we currently income generate from other companies for catering and hospitality so they probably can't access this. Are they viewing the purchase price as buying them access to these areas and others where smfc currently generate income? Genuine question, not suggesting impropriety. the catering organisation at SMFC is a franchise, Kibble can get crucial influence by blocking every bid for the next contract except the one that comes from a kibble group company No-one at the club should feel their job is safe now as Kibble could block pay rises, contract extensions and they would have a say over future expenditure cuts or increases. they will also seek to maximise access to our training facilities for their clients, possibly to the detriment of the playing side of the business. I am personally most uneasy about the religious affiliations of some of the trustees, a look at their governance structure tells you that it is convoluted and belies the presbyterian roots of Kibble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: 12 minutes ago, beyond our ken said: It's a form of trading. In order to get something you want you block initiatives from others until you get what you want. As I said in a previous post, I was replying to a specific part of buddiecat's post where he was claiming that Kibble could basically do whatever they want - I just pointed out that they couldn't. they get to do what they want by blocking everything else until they get their way. You understand this. I have personal experience of working in this kind of model when i worked for a national seat of learning. The committee model of governance they employed meant that as a business group manager EVERY decision that i made could be called in for scrutiny and could be overturned by board members of the many charities, trusts and companies that were squirreled away within the woodwork of the institution and when I left I vowed never to work in any so-called charitable organisation again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 16 hours ago, TPAFKATS said: Are you intentionally misreading this on a repeated basis? Apologies for being short, but I'm getting a bit exasperated! As I said yesterday, I am not sure what you're getting at, I have taken a couple of stabs at it but if I'm still not understanding what you mean, I would have to ask you to clarify or reach out to someone involved at SMISA/ Kibble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, barrhead saint said: I think that's it, what exactly do the club get from this ? I've read we will get the benefits of Kibbles vast experience. What experience do they have in running a football club ? No experience of running a football Club. Then again they do not have the shareholding nor have any intention of doing so ... "The day-to-day running of the football club will still be done by the professionals at St Mirren who do it well, but they will be supported by Kibble's expertise in areas such as HR, finance, marketing and communications." And if they were making a proposal to run the Club I would have more faith in their business acumen and professionals than a bunch of fans that have no experience of running a football Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 Quite simply Kibble want to access a plethora of Grant's, funding and exposure that will take in effect MILLIONS out of the club community trust..It's a no brainer for them, with next to no risk attached.Once there in, you will never, ever be able to shift them. In fact with their resources and structure, they will be happy to sit it out until you say 'ah f**k it" and traipse down to Braehead every other Saturday.I ask again Who gave the Smisa Committee the green light to sell over a quarter of the club to a third party?Having refracted the smisa constitution for BtB I know there was nothing in there about Selling The Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 No experience of running a football Club. Then again they do not have the shareholding nor have any intention of doing so ... "The day-to-day running of the football club will still be done by the professionals at St Mirren who do it well, but they will be supported by Kibble's expertise in areas such as HR, finance, marketing and communications." And if they were making a proposal to run the Club I would have more faith in their business acumen and professionals than a bunch of fans that have no experience of running a football Club.Really..? You want an organisation with no Interest in professional football to run smfc.Curious...Perhaps this deal needs a catch title like...."STBO"Selling The Buds Out (before they even got started) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: Quite simply Kibble want to access a plethora of Grant's, funding and exposure that will take in effect MILLIONS out of the club community trust.. It's a no brainer for them, with next to no risk attached. Once there in, you will never, ever be able to shift them. In fact with their resources and structure, they will be happy to sit it out until you say 'ah f**k it" and traipse down to Braehead every other Saturday. I ask again Who gave the Smisa Committee the green light to sell over a quarter of the club to a third party? Having refracted the smisa constitution for BtB I know there was nothing in there about Selling The Club. ...and you post the same incorrect drivel on both threads - go read the reply on the other one you are talking through your arse as usual. You are seriously saying SMFC receive "millions" a year in grant aid ?????? Just shut the F Up man !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Lord Pityme said: The issue is the power a major shareholding of over 25% gives to Kibble! They will be able to influence how the club is run, that's a matter of fact. Can anyone point me to Smisa saying "Third Party Ownership" is a good thing in the BtB campaign? No... you won't find it, in fact you will find the exact opposite as the reason most signed up to BtB was because it secured the overwhelming ownership of all shares with St Mirren fans. Now Smisa are saying "yeah we changed our minds, fan ownership isnt our priority anymore" Who the f**k asked Smisa to go find a Third Party Owner... was it the people who own Smisa the members..? SMISA have presented the option to the fans after discussions with the Kibble. This is where you completely don’t understand the nature of SMISA, BTB or democracy in general (shown countless times with other matters on this subject). The only ethical thing SMISA can do here is let the paying members decide. If Kibble came with this proposal and someone immediately said no without consulting the paying members it would not be fit, proper, ethical or democratic. Maybe read this out loud a few times & see if it sinks in that your individual view isn’t all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 37 minutes ago, beyond our ken said: the catering organisation at SMFC is a franchise, Kibble can get crucial influence by blocking every bid for the next contract except the one that comes from a kibble group company No-one at the club should feel their job is safe now as Kibble could block pay rises, contract extensions and they would have a say over future expenditure cuts or increases. they will also seek to maximise access to our training facilities for their clients, possibly to the detriment of the playing side of the business. I am personally most uneasy about the religious affiliations of some of the trustees, a look at their governance structure tells you that it is convoluted and belies the presbyterian roots of Kibble WTF ! Kibble are not an employment agency. At most they would be looking at giving young folk work experience / live skills working alongside the experts in whatever field they choose. As for your last sentence GTF with that sort of stuff more at home on Follow Follow or the likes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 ...and you post the same incorrect drivel on both threads - go read the reply on the other one you are talking through your arse as usual. You are seriously saying SMFC receive "millions" a year in grant aid ?????? Just shut the F Up man !!!!!Not millions in a year, but one contract is worth over £200k alone, add to that all the other available funding that Kibble want to access thru smfc, that our community trust is set up to do and in a couple of years it will total over a million.There initial stake to buy 27.5% will see them rske all that in for years and years instead of the club.Are you suggesting that is not the case?The Kibble CEO is quite open and upfront about what they want!You can bury your head in the sand and let them go ahead. Once they're on, the funding is theirs.That is exactly the aim they have stated.Go on prove it wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 54 minutes ago, beyond our ken said: the catering organisation at SMFC is a franchise, Kibble can get crucial influence by blocking every bid for the next contract except the one that comes from a kibble group company This would represent a conflict of interest, this scenario couldn't play out. No-one at the club should feel their job is safe now as Kibble could block pay rises, contract extensions and they would have a say over future expenditure cuts or increases. The reputational damage and counter-productive nature of this makes it exceptionally unlikely. I've also never heard anything that this sort of behaviour is within the vision of the Kibble currently, don't know why people would think they would suddenly use this approach. They may be able to influence aspects of club expenditure but as said before a strong SMFC is in their interest and cutting costs will not generate profit for them (any or at the very least considerable to make it worth while). they will also seek to maximise access to our training facilities for their clients, possibly to the detriment of the playing side of the business. Again, not in their interest to determent the club, no hint at all that they'll be able to control the time the players use the facilities. Community benefit in such things like using our facilities has been a big point for some on here over the years, are people really going to spin this as a negative now? I am personally most uneasy about the religious affiliations of some of the trustees, a look at their governance structure tells you that it is convoluted and belies the presbyterian roots of Kibble How could this impact SMFC? A post that seems very much straw clutching IMO. There are questions to ask, sure but worry about religion and Kibble kicking the football club off their own training facilities? Not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truesaint Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 41 minutes ago, beyond our ken said: they get to do what they want by blocking everything else until they get their way. You understand this. I have personal experience of working in this kind of model when i worked for a national seat of learning. The committee model of governance they employed meant that as a business group manager EVERY decision that i made could be called in for scrutiny and could be overturned by board members of the many charities, trusts and companies that were squirreled away within the woodwork of the institution and when I left I vowed never to work in any so-called charitable organisation again. You are right that a lot of charities have questionable infrastructures and most of the experiences I have had with charities are poor. There can be a lot of internal issues as there are with a lot of them but I don't know Kibble's set up. If any internal stuff can be kept within Kibble and has no impact on our day to day then great but would like to see us proceed with caution for 5 years or so to make sure it is the positives that are brought to the table and without any potential negatives. They should have an opinion and vote on matters but if it is detrimental to the club then we should be able to review. A cost analysis as well as projected income from this type of venture along with possible pro's and con's should be established. LPM is right to point out some of our failings with regards to community trust although I have no idea of the figures involved. Does what Kibble get outweigh what we expect to get or vice versa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 WTF ! Kibble are not an employment agency. At most they would be looking at giving young folk work experience / live skills working alongside the experts in whatever field they choose. As for your last sentence GTF with that sort of stuff more at home on Follow Follow or the likes.Dearly me have you done ZERO research on Kibble? They run contracts for all sorts of companies with their workforce.Dear God man, get help and read up ffs.Have you even read the proposal yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 They obviously do have interest in professional football or this wouldn't be an issue. What do the fans know about running a professional football club? More to the point, what do you know about it?Tell me how they will manage Goody and his staff then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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