Livingston versus St Mirren

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

17 hours ago, stlucifer said:

Point 1. There is no such thing as the "Old firm". You can thank me later.

Point 2. We cannot compare the Scottish scene to England. They are on a different stratosphere though I do believe the profits from TV is shared to lower leagues at the expense of those Sky want to televise. This is akin to sharing profits made from their games. You have to remember that there are hardly any games televised from Ipox and porkheed. It's their away games that are televised meaning, due to this and their own fans behaviour at away grounds, it is more likely that people will watch from afar possibly affecting the smaller club's revenue. That's part of the reason for clubs basically giving up their home advantage to generate home revenue,

 

IF the @rsecheeks are being honest about trying to make our league competitive then even giving a percentage of each game receipts would go some way to redressing the balance. Let's say each club gives 10% of the gate after expenses, to the team who have come to allow them to actually play the game. For clubs of similar size it would amount to almost the same thing as keeping their home gates. I'm not pretending this is the right way to go about it but there must be some way to cover travel costs and paying away staff for actually being there.

 

15 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

They take the lion's share of the league money and always will, they can afford to drop a couple of million to the common good fund, it's not as if they use it well and maybe a bit more competition would shake our league up.  Fans are coming back and they will want to see more competition.

The old firm have long complained that their poor performance in Europe was down to a lack of competition at home, but they have killed that by fixing the system and the one chance we had to restore balance was scuppered by an Aberdeen board that had ideas they could be a permanent 3rd force.

We need to remember that comparisons with the EP are not apples with apples, they share the TV money far more fairly with promotion payment gurantees (which makes a promoted side far more competitive as long as they havent pawned the silver to get promoted) and relegation cushion payments.  Look at how clubs with smaller stadia like Bournemouth, Brighton, Forest and others can mix it in the middle third of the table with clubs who get 35000-40000 and more for home games.  our system is geared to perpetuate the duopoly.

Whilst I agree with a lot of both your posts, they largely don’t reference the point I’m making. I thought we were talking about the sharing of gate receipts which in my opinion is a naive notion to say the least (does it actually happen anywhere?). I’m not convinced that Coke subsidises Tesco Cola or McDonalds subsidise the burger van at the bottom of St. Mirren Brae (possibly showing my age there).

If you want to talk about the equitable share of prize and TV money that’s another matter. I’d be right behind you. We had the very opportunity to sort that out in 2012 but thanks to Wiggy Milne seeing £££ in his eyes at the prospect of being the second biggest club, we (the league) f**ked that opportunity right up. 
 

Oh and by the way, regarding the OF not existing any more……..

[stlucifer]

2 hours ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

 

Whilst I agree with a lot of both your posts, they largely don’t reference the point I’m making. I thought we were talking about the sharing of gate receipts which in my opinion is a naive notion to say the least (does it actually happen anywhere?). I’m not convinced that Coke subsidises Tesco Cola or McDonalds subsidise the burger van at the bottom of St. Mirren Brae (possibly showing my age there).

If you want to talk about the equitable share of prize and TV money that’s another matter. I’d be right behind you. We had the very opportunity to sort that out in 2012 but thanks to Wiggy Milne seeing £££ in his eyes at the prospect of being the second biggest club, we (the league) f**ked that opportunity right up. 
 

Oh and by the way, regarding the OF not existing any more……..

I'll get your last point out of the way. Why should anyone find it more tiresome to ensure the truth is always made clear when the lies are constantly spouted? I find it incredulous that anyone should continuously perpetuate the myth that rangers didn't become extinct.

To get onto your other points.

The analogy you make about coke and tesco etc is, IMHO, nonsense. They compete with product and price. In football there is NO competition without 2 teams o the park.

The reason I brought up the prize money is due to the shareout which is far more generous %wise to the lower league teams than it is in Scotland where, as far as the two @rsecheeks are concerned, is geared up to overwhelmingly benefit the top teams two which, as it stands, (and previously when the "real" rangers were alive), is almost invariably the @rsecheeks. I suspect if that were to change they would be the first to claim unfairness.

[Sue Denim]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:07 PM, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Trying to be objective, why should they subsidise the rest of the league. 
 

It’s the rest of the league that are currently subsidising OF. Without anyone to play, the OF would go out of business. The opposition aren’t getting paid their share of the money being made at Ibrox and Parkhead. No opposition, no money. 

[faraway saint]

2 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

It’s the rest of the league that are currently subsidising OF. Without anyone to play, the OF would go out of business. The opposition aren’t getting paid their share of the money being made at Ibrox and Parkhead. No opposition, no money. 

🤣🤣🤣

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

14 hours ago, Sue Denim said:

It’s the rest of the league that are currently subsidising OF. Without anyone to play, the OF would go out of business. The opposition aren’t getting paid their share of the money being made at Ibrox and Parkhead. No opposition, no money. 

That is of course a factual statement and if football wasn't a business it would be spot on. The SPFL isn't some big cosy cooperative. It's a survival of the fittest business and lets be honest, that's not how business works.

Surely the biggest factor here is that (unless I'm mistaken, which very very very occasionally I am) gate sharing doesn't happen anywhere else. Are we really saying that the Scottish league is completely unique in world football and should operate in a different way?

[StanleySaint]

Gate sharing is a thing of the past, it makes no sense to those teams who have a large home support, equal prize money or at least a more equitable share is a much more realistic if still unlikely aim. 

[antrin]

17 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

That is of course a factual statement and if football wasn't a business it would be spot on. The SPFL isn't some big cosy cooperative. It's a survival of the fittest business and lets be honest, that's not how business works.

Surely the biggest factor here is that (unless I'm mistaken, which very very very occasionally I am) gate sharing doesn't happen anywhere else. Are we really saying that the Scottish league is completely unique in world football and should operate in a different way?

Unless you know of some other small, benighted country whose two top teams are the product of bigotry and/or racism, then aye - Scotland is unique in that.

 

[st jock]

Easy win. Saints to take 3 points from Martindale and some coke (sniff). Yes I know it's childish but it's funny. 

[stlucifer]

17 minutes ago, st jock said:

Easy win. Saints to take 3 points from Martindale and some coke (sniff). Yes I know it's childish but it's funny. 

My guess? Two thirds right. Or. Perhaps that should be half right.

Edited August 31, 2023 by stlucifer

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

4 hours ago, antrin said:

Unless you know of some other small, benighted country whose two top teams are the product of bigotry and/or racism, then aye - Scotland is unique in that.

 

Ffs Antrin are you really trying to suggest that racism and bigotry is unique to Scottish football?
If so, I suggest you pay a visit to Spain, Ukraine (possibly not now) or Russia. 
Anyway, what on earth has your point got to do with gate receipt sharing. 

[antrin]

4 hours ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Ffs Antrin are you really trying to suggest that racism and bigotry is unique to Scottish football?
If so, I suggest you pay a visit to Spain, Ukraine (possibly not now) or Russia. 
Anyway, what on earth has your point got to do with gate receipt sharing. 

No.  It's only you who is suggesting that.

I know you're avoiding the obvious.  In other lands there are various brands of bigotry and racism, but none as predominant in fitba as that in Scotland.  It’s Scotland’s pride, if you wish…

Rangers wealth was built upon anti-Catholic hatred and maintaining Protestant dominance over Catholics.  Thick’s piled in.  Celtic was set up to try to counteract that.  The two grew like puss-filled boils to financially overwhelm all the other clubs.

When Rangers died, con merchants understood that a new bigot club that seemed to look like the old one (and called The Rangers) could be set up to con the thick bigots.

in a unique situation such as our league, then gate-sharing (once upon a time) gave diddy teams a “chance” of being competitive.  That has gone - as has all chance of a competitive, level playing field.

 

 

[W6er]

42 minutes ago, antrin said:

No.  It's only you who is suggesting that.

I know you're avoiding the obvious.  In other lands there are various brands of bigotry and racism, but none as predominant in fitba as that in Scotland.  It’s Scotland’s pride, if you wish…

Rangers wealth was built upon anti-Catholic hatred and maintaining Protestant dominance over Catholics.  Thick’s piled in.  Celtic was set up to try to counteract that.  The two grew like puss-filled boils to financially overwhelm all the other clubs.

When Rangers died, con merchants understood that a new bigot club that seemed to look like the old one (and called The Rangers) could be set up to con the thick bigots.

in a unique situation such as our league, then gate-sharing (once upon a time) gave diddy teams a “chance” of being competitive.  That has gone - as has all chance of a competitive, level playing field.

 

 

 

You're having a shocker with your apostrophes today, Antrin. 

As for the Old Firm, I would suggest the history is slightly different. Celtic were established as a charitable club to benefit the Irish poor of the city, based on Edinburgh's Hibs. Right from the start Celtic were involved in Irish politics, and Michael Davitt laid the first sod of shamrock at the club's ground.(1) Davitt had been a member of the Irish Republican Brotherhood and was convicted for smuggling arms. (2) 

Celtic quickly became a very successful club and was very fiercely Irish, with the club's fans singing rebel songs and flying the Irish tricolour (some 30 years before Ireland gained independence and it became an official flag) and this annoyed many Scots. When Rangers began to challenge them, Scots from towns outwith Glasgow adopted Rangers as their club, which de facto became an anti-Irish club. 

At least that's how I remember it from the various books I have read. I recommend Bill Murray's book on the subject, as it actually explores the social history of Glasgow and the West of Scotland in considerable detail. 

Personally, I don't like our club being associated with politics at all - which is why I didn't like the booing of Douglas Ross when he ran the line on Sunday.  

 

 

(1) https://thecelticstar.com/remember-michael-davitt-celtics-first-patron-man-who-laid-that-first-sod-of-shamrock-smothered-turf-at-celtic-park/

(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Davitt

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by W6er

[antrin]

Close, but no cigar W6er. 
Rangers wealth - like St Mirren wealth or Aberdeen wealth - needs no apostrophe.  

 

I’ll concede Thicks (it was “autocorrected”.).

pus-filled was an egregious snafu that you missed.  My rendition was far too feline.

I had had a bottle of wine. I was sleepy… and I’ve now been awake for an hour.  Sigh.

[faraway saint]

And another thread hijacked to feed the troll from London's desire to post about the OLD FIRM.

Gies fecking peace. 

[Jimmy H]

Anybuddie know of any pubs in Dusseldorf where me and that argumentative auld git TPAFKA Jersey 2 can watch the game tomorrow? 

[faraway saint]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy H said:

Anybuddie know of any pubs in Dusseldorf where me and that argumentative auld git TPAFKA Jersey 2 can watch the game tomorrow? 

I think you'll be lucky to find one mate, try a Google search, maybe Scottish pubs? 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

3 hours ago, Jimmy H said:

Anybuddie know of any pubs in Dusseldorf where me and that argumentative auld git TPAFKA Jersey 2 can watch the game tomorrow? 

IPTV on my iPad is your friend Jimmy. 👍

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

12 hours ago, antrin said:

No.  It's only you who is suggesting that.

I know you're avoiding the obvious.  In other lands there are various brands of bigotry and racism, but none as predominant in fitba as that in Scotland.  It’s Scotland’s pride, if you wish…

Rangers wealth was built upon anti-Catholic hatred and maintaining Protestant dominance over Catholics.  Thick’s piled in.  Celtic was set up to try to counteract that.  The two grew like puss-filled boils to financially overwhelm all the other clubs.

When Rangers died, con merchants understood that a new bigot club that seemed to look like the old one (and called The Rangers) could be set up to con the thick bigots.

in a unique situation such as our league, then gate-sharing (once upon a time) gave diddy teams a “chance” of being competitive.  That has gone - as has all chance of a competitive, level playing field.

 

 

So just to be clear, there should be gate sharing in Scottish football because Celtic and Rangers are bigoted?

Got it. 👍

[beyond our ken]

12 hours ago, W6er said:

 

You're having a shocker with your apostrophes today, Antrin. 

As for the Old Firm, I would suggest the history is slightly different. Celtic were established as a charitable club to benefit the Irish poor of the city, based on Edinburgh's Hibs. Right from the start Celtic were involved in Irish politics, and Michael Davitt laid the first sod of shamrock at the club's ground.(1) Davitt had been a member of the Irish Republican Brotherhood and was convicted for smuggling arms. (2) 

Celtic quickly became a very successful club and was very fiercely Irish, with the club's fans singing rebel songs and flying the Irish tricolour (some 30 years before Ireland gained independence and it became an official flag) and this annoyed many Scots. When Rangers began to challenge them, Scots from towns outwith Glasgow adopted Rangers as their club, which de facto became an anti-Irish club. 

At least that's how I remember it from the various books I have read. I recommend Bill Murray's book on the subject, as it actually explores the social history of Glasgow and the West of Scotland in considerable detail. 

Personally, I don't like our club being associated with politics at all - which is why I didn't like the booing of Douglas Ross when he ran the line on Sunday.  

 

 

(1) https://thecelticstar.com/remember-michael-davitt-celtics-first-patron-man-who-laid-that-first-sod-of-shamrock-smothered-turf-at-celtic-park/

(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Davitt

 

Douglas Ross is a wee fat ride and a notably poor football official.  Try making a song out of that, though

[beyond our ken]

22 hours ago, antrin said:

Unless you know of some other small, benighted country whose two top teams are the product of bigotry and/or racism, then aye - Scotland is unique in that.

 

Try Israel, united by hating the same things

(steps back, flame shield in place)

[W6er]

22 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Douglas Ross is a wee fat ride and a notably poor football official.  Try making a song out of that, though

I appreciate many folk don't like him. However, not all of our support will despise him as you clearly do, so in that respect it's divisive. Besides, irrespective of one's politics, I think it takes guts for him to run the line. I can't imagine any other Scottish politician having the (metaphorical) balls to do it? Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon or Humza Yousaf? Nae chance.

[beyond our ken]

1 minute ago, W6er said:

I appreciate many folk don't like him. However, not all of our support will despise him as you clearly do, so in that respect it's divisive. Besides, irrespective of one's politics, I think it takes guts for him to run the line. I can't imagine any other Scottish politician having the (metaphorical) balls to do it? Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon or Humza Yousaf? Nae chance.

As Father Ted once said "priests aren't fascists, fascists walk around dressed in black telling other people what to do"

He tries to do that in no less than 4 jobs, nice work (sic) if you can get it.  I seem to remember him bleating about the pressure politics places on family time, ooh! the nerve!  He even cited his family when Ruthie baby resigned saying he knows how hard it is to juggle politics and family (his wife is a cop)

"Scottish Tory leader Douglas Ross has been slammed by international human rights groups and Scottish Gypsy/Traveller elders after emails uncovered by openDemocracy show he tried to have a family of Travellers evicted by the local council because their camp was “very visible”.

In the email, released to openDemocracy under the Freedom of Information Act, Ross says “the site has now been occupied for some time and is in a very visible location as you enter Moray from the west.”

He also complains that “it seems to be getting bigger” and asks the council chief executive “what plans you have to take action to remove the Travellers from the site”.

He also spoke against drag queen story time, has he never been to a pantomime? (outside of the one he lives in)

Ross is an annoyance, i don't despise him even though he is an unerringly negative person whose main contribution to political discourse seems to be pointing out how bad everyone else is without having anything to refer to for his own merits.  He serves his side of the debate very poorly.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

22 minutes ago, W6er said:

I appreciate many folk don't like him. However, not all of our support will despise him as you clearly do, so in that respect it's divisive. Besides, irrespective of one's politics, I think it takes guts for him to run the line. I can't imagine any other Scottish politician having the (metaphorical) balls to do it? Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon or Humza Yousaf? Nae chance.

I don’t care who you are or what your politics are, if you don’t think Douglas Ross is an utter c**t, then in my humble opinion there’s something wrong with you. 
For the avoidance of doubt that’s a general “you” not a W6er you. 

[HSS]

2 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

I don’t care who you are or what your politics are, if you don’t think Douglas Ross is an utter c**t, then in my humble opinion there’s something wrong with you. 
For the avoidance of doubt that’s a general “you” not a W6er you. 

👏👏👏

[W6er]

14 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

As Father Ted once said "priests aren't fascists, fascists walk around dressed in black telling other people what to do"

He tries to do that in no less than 4 jobs, nice work (sic) if you can get it.  I seem to remember him bleating about the pressure politics places on family time, ooh! the nerve!  He even cited his family when Ruthie baby resigned saying he knows how hard it is to juggle politics and family (his wife is a cop)

"Scottish Tory leader Douglas Ross has been slammed by international human rights groups and Scottish Gypsy/Traveller elders after emails uncovered by openDemocracy show he tried to have a family of Travellers evicted by the local council because their camp was “very visible”.

In the email, released to openDemocracy under the Freedom of Information Act, Ross says “the site has now been occupied for some time and is in a very visible location as you enter Moray from the west.”

He also complains that “it seems to be getting bigger” and asks the council chief executive “what plans you have to take action to remove the Travellers from the site”.

He also spoke against drag queen story time, has he never been to a pantomime? (outside of the one he lives in)

Ross is an annoyance, i don't despise him even though he is an unerringly negative person whose main contribution to political discourse seems to be pointing out how bad everyone else is without having anything to refer to for his own merits.  He serves his side of the debate very poorly.

 

13 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

I don’t care who you are or what your politics are, if you don’t think Douglas Ross is an utter c**t, then in my humble opinion there’s something wrong with you. 
For the avoidance of doubt that’s a general “you” not a W6er you. 

 

I gave up on politics well over a decade ago. I think politicians are pretty much all self-serving, spineless hypocrites - though I can at least admire Ross for taking an interest in the game and having the baws to run the line. And I certainly don't think he's any worse than Sturgeon, Salmon or Yousaf. 

I find party politics to be tribalistic and divisive - the assertion that 'all right thinking people must think Ross is a c**t' is illustrative of this - therefore I don't like to see our club involved in it in anyway (unless a party is willing to pay for advertising boards). I would happily leave that to the arsecheeks.