nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Sevco will also need to return all prize money awarded to the real Rangers. Again, this was part if the agreement to allow Sevco unto the 3rd division. Until now, Sevco / Rangers have gotten away with their cheating. This opens a huge can of worms. Cheating on this scale cannot be ignored. Its essentially the biggest scandal in sporting history. Lets see how the press try to spin this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Thommo, Gow, Murray and Webster seen frantically withdrawing cash from ATM at Elderslie Asda...! HMRC won't go after the players. Its the club which should have paid the tax on the players behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I think that they can appeal to the Supreme Court. It was mentioned, before the result of this appeal was published, that if HMRC lost it then they could still go the Supreme Court so I assume that will apply to oldco as well. Whether they can afford to is another matter. Oldco is now administered by BDO on behalf of the creditors. As HMRC are now the main creditors, why would they want to appeal? Would be good if any financial experts out there could shed some light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) As long as they were under PAYE. If not ...Don't know the ins and outs...However, the whole point of using the EBTs was that Rangers could pay players a certain net pay but avoid paying the tax. In other words, they defrauded the taxpayer to sign players they otherwise couldn't have afforded. Players seem to be innocent in all this. Its the club that is guilty. But, as I admit, don't really know. Just my take on things. Edited November 4, 2015 by nosferatu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'm not saying that they would want to (or not), I'm saying that (it looks like) they have the option to. Yes, I agree then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 None of that is relevant. The FACT is that they are completely different legal entities. The main issues here are: 1. The LNS verdit on Rangers cheating was based on the EBT's being legal. They have now been found to be illegal. 2. Sevco agreed to take on any football punishments handed out to the real Rangers in return for being allowed entry to the then 3rd Division. As a consequence... If the LNS verdict is revisited then the ONLY suitable main punishment would surely have to be a sine die expulsion from football. And Sevco would need to take that punishment on... In addition, the real Rangers FC will have to be stripped of all titles and trophies won during that period. Clubs have been thrown out of the Scottish Cup and had points deducted for fielding ineligible players in the past. Based on the number of ineligible players Rangers must have fielded over a decade or more then I can't see past a sine die banning. Interesting post By the book, maybe. Can't see the SFA actually punishing them any more than they already have been. Tbh, (I might be in the minority here) I'd rather we just got on with the football than calling for further punishments/sanctions, the whole thing got very dull and quite poisonous. Any titles they won are now tainted, should just leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 HMRC won't go after the players. Its the club which should have paid the tax on the players behalf. Thommo, Gow, Murray and Webster seen frantically paying in wads of notes at Elderslie post office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Shit, I must be wrong then. Wrong, you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Interesting post By the book, maybe. Can't see the SFA actually punishing them any more than they already have been. Tbh, (I might be in the minority here) I'd rather we just got on with the football than calling for further punishments/sanctions, the whole thing got very dull and quite poisonous. Any titles they won are now tainted, should just leave it at that. Disagree. The titles aren't just tainted, they were won illegally. They haven't really punished at all so far for this cheating. This cant be swept under the carpet. Stripping titles would just be a consequence anyway... Not a punishment. As would return of prize money. A ban from football would be a punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irvine_buddie Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Interesting post By the book, maybe. Can't see the SFA actually punishing them any more than they already have been. Tbh, (I might be in the minority here) I'd rather we just got on with the football than calling for further punishments/sanctions, the whole thing got very dull and quite poisonous. Any titles they won are now tainted, should just leave it at that. A wee asterix would be good enough for me just for comic value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Can Rangers appeal or is this the final verdict and end of the matter? It COULD be appealed.... but doubt that will happen. Can they appeal ? This is the outcome of the appeal ! There's a procedure for appeals. This was but one step. Ye would think that having won the BTC... HMRC would be desperate to get any money they can from the club - especially if they're still claiming to trade as the same club with the same history.... Not sure how this would be viewed under trading laws etc. Expect Mr King will try to distance the newco from the oldco in the coming weeks. Remember that a few months back he was talking about bring the "oldco" back from the dead... HMRC are more interested in enforcing an interpretation of the EBTs - ie that it's illegal so that OTHERS won't try it on - and so that others will NOW settle up instead of being dragged through a similar process to Rangers. Rangers don't exist. There's a new entity called The Rangers FC and another called Rangers International FC. The Scottish Media are trying to pretend that the club didn't die - despite them ALL having headlines about it, on the day it happened. They have been assisted in this by a supine football authority. An authority that all the senior fitba clubs keep in position. It's ludicrous and dishonest : it's allowing lies and deceit instead of sporting equality to be the core of the game. And the fans pay for it. nosferatu's sadly pissing in the wind with the following post. They won't punish sevco. They're not even, it seems, forcing sevco to pay the paltry £250k it promised to pay as part of being allowed into the league!! (mentioned in my post above, as having been noted in the Sevco accounts) Obviously teams like St Mirren and Motherwell need it less than the blue Billionaiires. Sevco will also need to return all prize money awarded to the real Rangers. Again, this was part if the agreement to allow Sevco unto the 3rd division. Until now, Sevco / Rangers have gotten away with their cheating. This opens a huge can of worms. Cheating on this scale cannot be ignored. Its essentially the biggest scandal in sporting history. Lets see how the press try to spin this... The Press will ignore it. Cheating will continue to go unpunished until fans stop supporting with their money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Happy and glorious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It COULD be appealed.... but doubt that will happen. There's a procedure for appeals. This was but one step. HMRC are more interested in enforcing an interpretation of the EBTs - ie that it's illegal so that OTHERS won't try it on - and so that others will NOW settle up instead of being dragged through a similar process to Rangers. Rangers don't exist. There's a new entity called The Rangers FC and another called Rangers International FC. The Scottish Media are trying to pretend that the club didn't die - despite them ALL having headlines about it, on the day it happened. They have been assisted in this by a supine football authority. An authority that all the senior fitba clubs keep in position. It's ludicrous and dishonest : it's allowing lies and deceit instead of sporting equality to be the core of the game. And the fans pay for it. nosferatu's sadly pissing in the wind with the following post. They won't punish sevco. They're not even, it seems, forcing sevco to pay the paltry £250k it promised to pay as part of being allowed into the league!! (mentioned in my post above, as having been noted in the Sevco accounts) Obviously teams like St Mirren and Motherwell need it less than the blue Billionaiires. The Press will ignore it. Cheating will continue to go unpunished until fans stop supporting with their money. Sadly, I think you are correct. I personally wont be back if nothing happens. Football will be no better than wrestling otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Sadly, I think you are correct. I personally wont be back if nothing happens. Football will be no better than wrestling otherwise. Or Lance Armstrong...? Can't see the SMSM ever being as honest and persistent as David Walsh was with Armstrong... It only needs one hero journalist and an honest editor... (we share the cynicism, however...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Or Lance Armstrong...? Can't see the SMSM ever being as honest and persistent as David Walsh was with Armstrong... It only needs one hero journalist and an honest editor... (we share the cynicism, however...) You would have to go and bring him into it . . Certainly, he was part of the biggest cheating scandal in cycling and possibly in sport to date . Obviously, the oldco/sevco/cuntco scandal is bigger , in that it will involve more money and more people , however , I can't see the current announcement being the iceberg that finally sinks them . . By sinking, I just mean the final disappearance of anything of a footballing nature coming out of Ipox. They are all entitled to have their day/s in court for however many years they want after that entity finally goes. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Or Lance Armstrong...? Can't see the SMSM ever being as honest and persistent as David Walsh was with Armstrong... It only needs one hero journalist and an honest editor... (we share the cynicism, however...) Cycling was slightly different. Most of the top participants were at it. In this case, there was only one participant cheating.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 That we know of. Not sure that is true. Rangers EBTs were declared in their report & accounts. No other club did. I also don't think any club, bar Celtic, would have been able to afford to set these up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I believe that at the time Celtic came to an agreement with HMRC about the one or two that they had. Exactly. .cheatun baisturts. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I believe that at the time Celtic came to an agreement with HMRC about the one or two that they had. As did several Ingurlish clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Or Lance Armstrong...? Can't see the SMSM ever being as honest and persistent as David Walsh was with Armstrong... It only needs one hero journalist and an honest editor... (we share the cynicism, however...) Armstrong was the most high profile of dozens caught in pro cycling. Plenty use it as a stick to beat cycling with and it has been raised in that context here but it hasn't stopped the public of Europe turning out in their millions every year to watch events like the Tour inc over 1m in Britain when it came to Yorkshire. Todays ruling was only relevant going forward and will have no real repercussions for the tribute act and no doubt Scottish football as a whole down to the complicit and inept authorities. It will have caused discomfort however throughout boardrooms of English clubs who haven't already settled with HMRC and many large uk based companies who will be operating "dubious" payment schemes for its staff. Every last one of us knew Rangers were guilty we didn't need today's ruling to confirm it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 They also need an extra £2.5m in funding to make it until the end of the season, which the first tranche of new money required next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 "The issue, however, may not be settled. David Murray may choose to appeal against the ruling to the Supreme Court. If he does, a final ruling in the case may still be years away. In the meantime, the judgement will have no financial impact on Rangers because the tax liability remains with the 'oldco' which went into liquidation." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34726283 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Not sure that is true. Rangers EBTs were declared in their report & accounts. No other club did. I also don't think any club, bar Celtic, would have been able to afford to set these up. I believe that at the time Celtic came to an agreement with HMRC about the one or two that they had. To be fair to them, Celtic started down that route, then thought better of it and got it sorted with HMRC. Arsenal were into it big initially, read the runes and paid a sled load of money to remove themselves (and affected players/wage-earners) from being further brought to book by HMRC. Only one uber-peepul thought they were above the indignities that us hoi-polloi must accept. I enjoy the hubris. "The issue, however, may not be settled. David Murray may choose to appeal against the ruling to the Supreme Court. If he does, a final ruling in the case may still be years away. In the meantime, the judgement will have no financial impact on Rangers because the tax liability remains with the 'oldco' which went into liquidation." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34726283 If Murray does that (where would he get the money to do so?!) he'd be even dafter than I imagined.The noble Lord and his fellow legal lords have shat on the two previous judgements (as did minor counsel, therein) so there's nothing to go on/build or proceed from. The game's a bogey, Murray! (Off topic, but.... How often have we heard THAT recently...? ) As was said in judgement, "common sense knows those payments to be earnings and thus taxable". I paraphrase cos I've been out for the evening.... Edited November 5, 2015 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 "HMRC may now enter the scrap for the cash liquidators have managed to salvage, along with the dozens of small businesses which were left out of pocket by the collapse of Rangers. Today's decision may be appealed against by the liquidators, and the saga could continue." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34723209 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Mark Daly has mibbe no thought it through. The biggest creditor is HMRC. What would the liquidators hope to gain for their creditors by employing counsel to fight through the courts...? Especially given the legal explanation for rejecting the two previous farcical judgements, as I suggest above. I really don't think it will happen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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