The Tommy Craig Must Go Thread

[Dibbles old paperboy]

But he did meet his 'primary target' in all 4 seasons with 2 seasons we finished in a respectable 8th.

If top 6 is a 'bonus' then i would love to hear the boards reasons for getting rid of Danny and what they expect of Tommy Craig.

Not a dig at you TC as i would agree that staying up is the objective, but DL managed that in all 4 seasons, twice comfortably

I remember SG being asked after Danny's departure whether the St Mirren board were saying that 8th wasn't good enough, even though it was our joint highest SPL finish in over 20 years and being asked did St Mirren see it as failure to finish in the bottom 6. SG's reply went along the lines of, the target is a bit higher than avoiding relegation, and the club don't always expect to finish in the top 6 every year, and top 6 would see us achieving beyond our means / punching above our weight - but other similar sized clubs have made it into the top 6 on a similar budget and we haven't come all that close yet. SG said something like, it would be nice at least to have a few season where we go into the split knowing we won't finish in the play off place or bottom spot and in all 4 of Danny's seasons we entered the split still faced with the prospect of relegation (some years more serious a threat than others).

My guess is this means that the target is not just to avoid relegation by a whisker, but even if we don't make the top 6 we should be getting a decent midtable points total and some winning runs together and there should be a reasonable sized points gap between ourselves and 11th place and we shouldn't always be finishing one place and a few points above trouble.

[dave.j]

I remember SG being asked after Danny's departure whether the St Mirren board were saying that 8th wasn't good enough, even though it was our joint highest SPL finish in over 20 years and being asked did St Mirren see it as failure to finish in the bottom 6. SG's reply went along the lines of, the target is a bit higher than avoiding relegation, and the club don't always expect to finish in the top 6 every year, and top 6 would see us achieving beyond our means / punching above our weight - but other similar sized clubs have made it into the top 6 on a similar budget and we haven't come all that close yet. SG said something like, it would be nice at least to have a few season where we go into the split knowing we won't finish in the play off place or bottom spot and in all 4 of Danny's seasons we entered the split still faced with the prospect of relegation (some years more serious a threat than others).

My guess is this means that the target is not just to avoid relegation by a whisker, but even if we don't make the top 6 we should be getting a decent midtable points total and some winning runs together and there should be a reasonable sized points gap between ourselves and 11th place and we shouldn't always be finishing one place and a few points above trouble.

He wants you at least 15 points from bottom by the split, I'd take from that.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

He wants you at least 15 points from bottom by the split, I'd take from that.

Who knows?! That certainly makes us mathematically safe. I suppose you could have a smaller gap and be mathematically safe since all the teams are playing each other and they can't all pick up 15 points and all overtake you.

It didn't sound like there was a league position or points total that meant the target was met, more like a number of factors and not always still being in squeaky bum time with 2 games left.

[Lord Pityme]

I remember SG being asked after Danny's departure whether the St Mirren board were saying that 8th wasn't good enough, even though it was our joint highest SPL finish in over 20 years and being asked did St Mirren see it as failure to finish in the bottom 6. SG's reply went along the lines of, the target is a bit higher than avoiding relegation, and the club don't always expect to finish in the top 6 every year, and top 6 would see us achieving beyond our means / punching above our weight - but other similar sized clubs have made it into the top 6 on a similar budget and we haven't come all that close yet. SG said something like, it would be nice at least to have a few season where we go into the split knowing we won't finish in the play off place or bottom spot and in all 4 of Danny's seasons we entered the split still faced with the prospect of relegation (some years more serious a threat than others).

My guess is this means that the target is not just to avoid relegation by a whisker, but even if we don't make the top 6 we should be getting a decent midtable points total and some winning runs together and there should be a reasonable sized points gap between ourselves and 11th place and we shouldn't always be finishing one place and a few points above trouble.

So two cups and a league flag to unfurl?

[BIG BEN]

A team of boys? Kelly and Naismith played pretty much all last season, Mclean and Mcginn are Scotland U21 regulars. Reilly has been around the first team squad for a couple of years although he hasn’t played as much as the others and Drury and Plummer were his signings. Haven’t done the maths but I doubt our average age is much younger than the majority of other teams in the league.

Don’t see how anyone can defend the performance or result yesterday, that was our easiest game of the season at home against the team clear at the bottom of the league and we settled for a draw with 10 minutes to go. It’s not all Tommy’s fault, the players have been really poor, but Tommy is the manager and the responsibility lies with him. One point from 6 home games? Not good enough, Motherwell will start winning games at some point I reckon and unless something changes dramatically ourselves and Ross County are going to end up scrapping it out for a playoff with Rangers or Hearts most likely.

its tommys fault he never used his subs to try and change it. Teale on was a no brainer for me

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

A team of boys? Kelly and Naismith played pretty much all last season, Mclean and Mcginn are Scotland U21 regulars. Reilly has been around the first team squad for a couple of years although he hasn’t played as much as the others and Drury and Plummer were his signings. Haven’t done the maths but I doubt our average age is much younger than the majority of other teams in the league.

Don’t see how anyone can defend the performance or result yesterday, that was our easiest game of the season at home against the team clear at the bottom of the league and we settled for a draw with 10 minutes to go. It’s not all Tommy’s fault, the players have been really poor, but Tommy is the manager and the responsibility lies with him. One point from 6 home games? Not good enough, Motherwell will start winning games at some point I reckon and unless something changes dramatically ourselves and Ross County are going to end up scrapping it out for a playoff with Rangers or Hearts most likely.

So you think Motherwell will start winning games while Saints won't....?

[Sergie's no1 fan]

There is no chance the board will sack a guy only a few months into a 2 year deal. It's not only TC remember, we have 2 players as assistants. Do we sack them too? Get them back to just playing contracts? Imagine that.

Over the years this current board have never reacted to knee jerk reactions. They have always given the manager a fair go at the job. Even if we are bottom half way through January I don't think he'll get sacked.

I personally think he should have left with Danny and has done nothing to convince me since then that he is the man to take the "club forward". Tommy was always going to have to get off to a good start or fans would turn very quickly. He has been unlucky with injuries to key players but some of the guys he has signed aren't looking up to the job. He also didn't address the centre back situation which meant moving a vital player from midfield back into defence. Fair enough he signed Osbourne but that was always going to be a risk given his history with injuries, which has bit us on the arse already.

I do think if Thompson was fit we'd be in a much better position but thats all guess work. So is saying Motherwell and StJohnstone will improve, which I believe will also happen.

Shitty situation to be in but we have been in worse over the years. We need to scrape as many points as possible until Thommo is fit again then pin all our hopes on the legend to get us out of whatever hole were in.

[flyingscot]

But he did meet his 'primary target' in all 4 seasons with 2 seasons we finished in a respectable 8th.

If top 6 is a 'bonus' then i would love to hear the boards reasons for getting rid of Danny and what they expect of Tommy Craig.

Not a dig at you TC as i would agree that staying up is the objective, but DL managed that in all 4 seasons, twice comfortably

The problem with Danny was the way things went, we should never have been in trouble after winning the cup and Lennon signed some diddies last year. If Naismith and Kelly hadn't stepped up...

Ultimately we got the job done every year but we made it far too hard on ourselves.

I still say Craig wasn't the right choice, but we are where we are and our board will never sack him.

[irvine_buddie]

So you think Motherwell will start winning games while Saints won't....?

I see us every week and we've yet to show much indication that we are going to start winning games, our last 2 games have been a home defeat against 10 men and a home draw with the team bottom of the league. Motherwell were crap the first game of the season and apart from that I have only seen highlights of their games but the difference is they have funds to buy players in January and already have better quality players and more depth in the squad than us. So yes there's more chance of them coming good than us.

[irvine_buddie]

its tommys fault he never used his subs to try and change it. Teale on was a no brainer for me

I thought Teale was still injured? But I agree with you, the Inverness game he had Tesselar on the bench and let Kelly play 90 mins when he was clearly exhausted.

[Froggie]

The general consensus among the faithful on here is that Craig will not be dismissed from his post, regardless of results - in the interim at least - and that we are stuck with him.

Despite picking up 1 home point from 18 and signing some second rate players, with apathy reigning among the home crowd, it seems this is what we are expected to put up with for the forseeable future.Fair enough, its what most of us expected when the decision was made to appoint Craig after his incompetent predecessor was sacked.

Quite honestly, many are past caring and have already voted with their feet, myself included.It just seems such a shame that with our nearest rivals in a state of turmoil and absent from view for a few seasons, not one fan appears to have been tempted back to Saints during this period of opportunity.

Ive no pleasure whatsoever in writing this but can see no other than relegation unless theres a complete turnaround in the way we are being managed. Afraid its up to a couldnt-care-less board to address this.

[TopCat]

But he did meet his 'primary target' in all 4 seasons with 2 seasons we finished in a respectable 8th.

If top 6 is a 'bonus' then i would love to hear the boards reasons for getting rid of Danny and what they expect of Tommy Craig.

Not a dig at you TC as i would agree that staying up is the objective, but DL managed that in all 4 seasons, twice comfortably

The thing with Danny was that he had been given 3 chances for us to get to the next level in the league, and he took none of them.

In his first season we scraped 11th and he wasn't sacked, he was given time. He was given time because he had achieved his primary aim of keeping us up. Achieving the primary aim was enough to stop him getting sacked for the remaining 3 years, but it wasn't enough to get him a new contract, and rightly so.

If we finish 10th this year and 10th next year, will Tommy get a new deal for 16/17? I'm pretty sure he won't. I also doubt he'll get sacked beforehand.

Back to Danny, when you take into account the time he got and couple it with his disasters in the transfer market, it's pretty easy to see why he never got a new contract.

People have been critical of some of Tommy's signings this year. Compared with the likes of Bahoken, Djemba-Djemba, Puri, Cornell, Harkins, Grainger, Dillon and Caprice however, they've all been roaring successes.

Regarding your point earlier about us not being a team of boys, I am going to do the math for you and post it shortly. I think you may be surprised

[nedflanders123]

I see us every week and we've yet to show much indication that we are going to start winning games, our last 2 games have been a home defeat against 10 men and a home draw with the team bottom of the league. Motherwell were crap the first game of the season and apart from that I have only seen highlights of their games but the difference is they have funds to buy players in January and already have better quality players and more depth in the squad than us. So yes there's more chance of them coming good than us.

How do you know what level of funds they have to spend? They very well may do but so do we, if push comes to shove. Motherwell are a pretty poor football team at this time- results do not lie. They are where they are because they are as rank as we are. Like us, they do have some decent players but as a team may have peaked. Time will tell. They are likely to finish above us but not by much.

Edited October 27, 2014 by nedflanders123

[foxbar_bud]

The thing with Danny was that he had been given 3 chances for us to get to the next level in the league, and he took none of them.

In his first season we scraped 11th and he wasn't sacked, he was given time. He was given time because he had achieved his primary aim of keeping us up. Achieving the primary aim was enough to stop him getting sacked for the remaining 3 years, but it wasn't enough to get him a new contract, and rightly so.

If we finish 10th this year and 10th next year, will Tommy get a new deal for 16/17? I'm pretty sure he won't. I also doubt he'll get sacked beforehand.

Back to Danny, when you take into account the time he got and couple it with his disasters in the transfer market, it's pretty easy to see why he never got a new contract.

People have been critical of some of Tommy's signings this year. Compared with the likes of Bahoken, Djemba-Djemba, Puri, Cornell, Harkins, Grainger, Dillon and Caprice however, they've all been roaring successes.

Regarding your point earlier about us not being a team of boys, I am going to do the math for you and post it shortly. I think you may be surprised

Not guilty TC, I never mentioned us being a team of boys or not...

[TopCat]

Not guilty TC, I never mentioned us being a team of boys or not...

Apologies, mixed you up with Irvine Buddie.

[a50lennyc]

Over the years this current board have never reacted to knee jerk reactions.

.

Fitzpatrick, hendrie & coughlin were all sacked by the current board before xmas

[TopCat]

Fitzpatrick, hendrie & coughlin were all sacked by the current board before xmas

Not in their first season.

[Mid Calder Saint]

TopCat. For someone who persistently wanted Danny sacked I find it truly amazing how you can constantly defend the ultra poor qualities of our current manager who was party to all the signings/decisions of our previous manager.

[TopCat]

TopCat. For someone who persistently wanted Danny sacked I find it truly amazing how you can constantly defend the ultra poor qualities of our current manager who was party to all the signings/decisions of our previous manager.

Was he? How do you know? There's only two people who know how much influence he had. They're Danny Lennon and Tommy Craig. Are you one of those people? Ultra poor qualities

Regarding myself, I'm afraid you've got your facts very wrong. Feel free to read back and find the threads for proof.

In his first season I backed him consistently while several others wanted him out, just like I'm doing with Tommy. I said in 2010 that every manager needs time, just like I'm saying now.

Indeed in his last few months I backed him while several others wanted him out too. After our home defeat to St Johnstone over 80% of fans polled wanted him sacked immediately, I was one of the less than 20% who wanted him to stay.

[Mid Calder Saint]

TopCat. Your stats seem impressive but how accurate? I clearly heard Danny on BBC Radio stating that Tommy was party to all his decisions. I am not changing my opinion. I want Craig out NOW.

[TopCat]

TopCat. Your stats seem impressive but how accurate? I clearly heard Danny on BBC Radio stating that Tommy was party to all his decisions. I am not changing my opinion. I want Craig out NOW.

There's a search function on this site on PNB. If you are concerned about the accuracy of what I say, use it to find out.

Well the phrase 'party to' means knows about, doesn't it? I'm sure he knew all about Danny's decisions. Was he involved in making them though?

The role of assistant manager varies wildly from club to club. Some assistant managers roles extend to taking the training sessions and getting the cones set up. Others are heavily involved in all aspects of the club from player recruitment to contracts to substitutions.

Only two people know the full extent of Tommy's role with Danny, and I assume we are neither of them.

Just as I won't be blaming Jim Goodwin and Gary Teale for any failures under Tommy Craig, I don't blame Tommy Craig for any failures under Danny Lennon. I've given him a clean slate, perhaps you should to.

[Mid Calder Saint]

I will not be giving him a clean slate. I simply think it was s lazy appointment. If he had management potential surely he would have realised it much earlier in his career. Just my opinion which I am entitled to surely as a shareholder season ticket holder and supporter of over fifty years.

[TopCat]

I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion, did I? Wanting a new manager sacked after 11 games when we aren't even in the relegation places is a pretty ridiculous opinion, right enough.

As I've said prior, I didn't agree with his appointment either. However, it has been made, and I'm going to get behind him and give him a chance. We can fully judge the merits of the appointment when he leaves post.

[irvine_buddie]

How do you know what level of funds they have to spend? They very well may do but so do we, if push comes to shove. Motherwell are a pretty poor football team at this time- results do not lie. They are where they are because they are as rank as we are. Like us, they do have some decent players but as a team may have peaked. Time will tell. They are likely to finish above us but not by much.

Yes obviously time will tell.. I was making a prediction not reading the future

Edited October 28, 2014 by irvine_buddie

[irvine_buddie]

Regarding your point earlier about us not being a team of boys, I am going to do the math for you and post it shortly. I think you may be surprised

You must have too much time on your hands . I’ll be interested to see the results but can’t imagine we have a particularly young team. Mclean is 22 so not exactly young anymore, Kelly, Naismith McGinn and Reilly all about 19 I think?