We Will Be Back

[Drew]

As a club we belong between the bottom half of the top flight and the top half of the second flight. That's where we've spent the vast majority of our history and where we will spend the vast majority of our future. If we are overachieving we get in the top half of the top flight, if we are struggling we will be in the bottom half of the second flight. Both of those events are rare though, we are what we are.

In the mid 70's Arbroath and Montrose finished above us. In the early 90's Airdrieonians relegated us. In the mid 90's even Morton finished above us! On the flip side we have finished above Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen several times in recent years.

These kind of fluctuations of smaller clubs finishing above bigger ones happen, they've always happened and they will continue to happen. No one has a divine right to finish above anyone. There's always a regression to the mean though. The sense of entitlement displayed by some on here is way off I'm afraid.

That's all fine, but doesn't explain the recent relative successes of the likes of ICT and Motherwell (and the fermers with their European adventures). These clubs operate at a similar level financially (granted Motherwell have cheated in the past) but have managed to make a comparatively sustained breakthrough into the top half of the table. There has been a distinct absence of ambition on St Mirren's part in recent years, as evidenced by the last two managerial appointments.

It is not a sense of entitlement. It is sport. It is about achieving and winning, and having some degree of hope and expectation in that regard. You make that sound negative.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Drew

[Drew]

But why is it "sobering"? What gives us the right to be able to compete with them? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the fact that we can't compete with them when historically we have, but that is not the same thing.

Bigger / big(ger) hitters, whatever phrase you want to use.

The current league has obviously been tougher, for us anyway.

Its sobering because many (most?) of us might - not unreasonably - expect to be able to compete with them. To find out we now cannot, is, well.... sobering. It is for me anyway.

This season has been such a struggle because we are shite, not because it is a tough league.

[madball]

To help avoid going into debt, cancel the big brass plaque, red curtains and illuminated signage for the Stewart Gilmour Main Stand.

Will probably do the cheap option on that sign and have letters falling off and could have distarous consequences... t wa t Gilmour Main Stand

[WirralSaint]

Patrick, Hamilton and Ross County have no place ahead of us in Scottish Football.

Poor management has put us in this mess, nothing else.

Hi

I'm Patrick Hamilton, playwright

Being dead I think you may have overestimated my place in Scottish football ahead of you

but prop my old carcass up and I could probably do a job at centre half in place of McAusland.

[DLBud]

So, what gives us a right to be above those teams? If everything just went on how big your club was and how much money you had then the top flight would stay the same every year, bar the same two clubs switching places between the bottom of the Premiership and the top of the Championship (and there is a good chance that we might not be one of them). The same one of the two ugly sisters (I'm not going to debate which one is "bigger") would win the league title every year, the same team would win the Champions League every year and the World Cup would be won by the same country every four years. What does give you the right to be above another team is results on the pitch, nothing else. There are various reasons why clubs perform differently each season and management is just one of them. I think that Thommo's injuries may actually have been a bigger factor in our demise than TC being shite.

We have absolutely no right to be in the top flight or be above any other team and the sooner some folk get that into their heads the better they will be for it.

I agree that we have no right to expect any level of success but it would have been nice, just once, to finish in the top 6.

We may be the only team with a sustained tenure in the top league that hasn't finished top 6 even once.

How is that explained?

[DLBud]

As far as I know it's true.

I posted after the McLean sale that we had cash flow problems and that's why we had to sell him.

If, as seems to be the case, this is true then it's very disappointing indeed.

At the start of the year you know have an idea of your income (ST sales, historical attendance figures, tv money and prize money) and you know your costs (labour costs and any other planned expenditure) so how do you get into this situation unless the latter is greater than the former?

I can almost understand situations like not having a home game in March putting a strain on cash flow but this issue is being referenced for January's wages?

We simply must put some of the £500k parachute payment into a fund to help us over difficult times in future so that the long term success of the club is not compromised by short term issues.

[Mid Calder Saint]

DLBud.Agree with what you say if there was a cashflow problem this should have been made clear at the AGM.Perhaps a Share Issue could have been mounted.You are almost afraid to raise any topic at those meetings due to The Chairman continually interjecting and the sour faces of the other Directors.

[WirralSaint]

This time 2013

Newest most compact stadium of all the teams in the top flight
Off the back of an unbudgeted for Cup win (prize money & gates including Celtic semi and 44,000 final)

Cash for TV covered Semi & Final

Pretty much debt free

Same time 2 years on ( with an additional ~£300,000 in the bank from Mclean sale)

One of the worse squads we've seen humiliated 5-0 on TV all but sealing our relegation
and financial problems looming?

...and Chick Young tries to spout stuff about well run

WTF?

...to achieve that in 2 years.... that is complete financial mismanagement.

[TopCat]

That's all fine, but doesn't explain the recent relative successes of the likes of ICT and Motherwell (and the fermers with their European adventures). These clubs operate at a similar level financially (granted Motherwell have cheated in the past) but have managed to make a comparatively sustained breakthrough into the top half of the table. There has been a distinct absence of ambition on St Mirren's part in recent years, as evidenced by the last two managerial appointments.

It is not a sense of entitlement. It is sport. It is about achieving and winning, and having some degree of hope and expectation in that regard. You make that sound negative.

Well it does explain it. Motherwell - as you rightly point out - cheated financially and cheated relegation too. Their admin went unpunished on the pitch and as a direct result they were able to rebuild and they rebuilt very well and benefitted from that fortune for a few years. Now there's been a regression to the mean and there's a very good chance Motherwell will be relegated this season. On the flip side they haven't had a trophy win for a generation, we have. Would you trade that day in March 2013 for seeing your team getting a pasting in Europe every summer? I wouldn't.

ICT, Accies and St Johnstone are all well run on and off the park, Accies make money from selling young players and ICT and St J have had financial backing from benefactors. They've all came back up stronger after relegation and they should be what we model ourselves on now. Their time in the top half of the top league won't last long though, just like ours didn't in the 80's.

For every team that's overachieving, there's one that's underachieving. For every ICT there's a Morton, for every St Johnstone a Dunfermline, for every Accies a Clyde. Most Scottish clubs - us included - are about where we should be.

I agree that it is frustrating that we haven't overachieved in the league as we certainly had the opportunity too, in 11/12 and 12/13 in particular. In both those seasons we had at least a top 6 squad, but due to poor management we never maximised our potential. How that cup winning squad managed to finish 11th I will never get my head around. I think that squad should have been capable of 4th minimum.

Last year the manager made a mess of the squad that had a knock on effect this season, coupled with a poor managerial appointment in the summer has seen us relegated.

We've came back before though, and we will come back again. And when we do come back, we'll get relegated again, and then we'll come back again.... And this familiar cycle will continue for another 100 years.

You can get yourself worked up about how terrible this is. You can stop going during the bad times and come back for the good times. On that note I guarantee that if we win the league next season - and I'm not saying we will before my auditors get excited - we will have a 5000+ home gate for the presentation and an open top bus around Paisley and everything will be rosy again.

Every fan now has the choice of chucking it or sticking it out and accepting that seeing bad seasons and relegations is part of being a Saints fan. Always has been, always will be.

[Mid Calder Saint]

TopCat. excellent post but we badly need a new management team in place now to prepare for the season ahead.Hopefully Board changes as well as freshness is urgent.

[Buddo]

Well it does explain it. Motherwell - as you rightly point out - cheated financially and cheated relegation too. Their admin went unpunished on the pitch and as a direct result they were able to rebuild and they rebuilt very well and benefitted from that fortune for a few years. Now there's been a regression to the mean and there's a very good chance Motherwell will be relegated this season. On the flip side they haven't had a trophy win for a generation, we have. Would you trade that day in March 2013 for seeing your team getting a pasting in Europe every summer? I wouldn't.

ICT, Accies and St Johnstone are all well run on and off the park, Accies make money from selling young players and ICT and St J have had financial backing from benefactors. They've all came back up stronger after relegation and they should be what we model ourselves on now. Their time in the top half of the top league won't last long though, just like ours didn't in the 80's.

For every team that's overachieving, there's one that's underachieving. For every ICT there's a Morton, for every St Johnstone a Dunfermline, for every Accies a Clyde. Most Scottish clubs - us included - are about where we should be.

I agree that it is frustrating that we haven't overachieved in the league as we certainly had the opportunity too, in 11/12 and 12/13 in particular. In both those seasons we had at least a top 6 squad, but due to poor management we never maximised our potential. How that cup winning squad managed to finish 11th I will never get my head around. I think that squad should have been capable of 4th minimum.

Last year the manager made a mess of the squad that had a knock on effect this season, coupled with a poor managerial appointment in the summer has seen us relegated.

We've came back before though, and we will come back again. And when we do come back, we'll get relegated again, and then we'll come back again.... And this familiar cycle will continue for another 100 years.

You can get yourself worked up about how terrible this is. You can stop going during the bad times and come back for the good times. On that note I guarantee that if we win the league next season - and I'm not saying we will before my auditors get excited - we will have a 5000+ home gate for the presentation and an open top bus around Paisley and everything will be rosy again.

Every fan now has the choice of chucking it or sticking it out and accepting that seeing bad seasons and relegations is part of being a Saints fan. Always has been, always will be.

I could not disagree more! Why do we have to be a perennial promotion and relegation team? Outwith the old firm, hibs, hearts, Aberdeen and utd, we are one of the most supported teams in scotland! Ie rank 7th. Comparisons to trophy success per generation? it is completely itrelevent! I would rather be challenging in the top 6 and getting the experience of European nights, against a 26 year cycle of winning a cup! That said, the frustration and anger within the support currently, is that even tho we have been in the top flight for 8 years and won the league cup, there has been no form of progression in our team as a top flight club! Infact the opposite has happened and it is a direct result of those running the Show lacking ambition, or know how in marketing our team to prospective buyers!! People have became disenchanted recently, passions run high, emotion rules the head at times, and knee jerk overtones of abandonment will subside. However the actions of the board are paramount to supporters engagement in the team, and due to their recent history of streamlining expenditure, lack of ambition, and (let's be charitable) mediocre appointments, we the support, in the large part are feeling short changed for our commitment and expenditure in following the team! No one is disputing our love of the club, but who actually believes the current BOD are on the same wave length as the common supporter?? Their ship sailed 5 years ago! Your last statement topcat was... Choice... Chucking it or sticking it out? The fans will always, as history has proven will stick it out, our current board have chucked it, and need to go! With every failure will come blame, and our current plight falls firmly on the heads of SG and the rest!!!!

totheir

[Leicester Saint]

Why is there all this talk of us being some kind of perennial yo-yo team, being relegated and promoted several times!? We actually haven't been relegated very often at all in our entire history, whereas a lot of other teams have.

[TopCat]

Why is there all this talk of us being some kind of perennial yo-yo team, being relegated and promoted several times!? We actually haven't been relegated very often at all in our entire history, whereas a lot of other teams have.

Well I'm not yet 30 and I've seen us relegated from the top flight 3 times already. I'm not saying we are the most relegated club in Scotland or anything.

I'm just saying we are the kind of club where relegation and promotion will happen on a relatively regular basis. We're certainly not alone in that regard, indeed most teams in Scotland fall under that bracket.

[ScotstounSaint]

Well I'm not yet 30 and I've seen us relegate ed from the top flight 3 times already. I'm not saying we are the most relegated club in Scotland or anything.

I'm just saying we are the kind of club where relegation and promotion will happen on a relatively regular basis. We're certainly not alone in that regard, indeed most teams in Scotland fall under that bracket.

Presuming we go down, we'll have been relegated 6 times in our history. I think there have been about 86 seasons where we could have been relegated.

Dunfermline, just as a comparison, have been relegated 11 times.

[Bud the Baker]

History, schmistory - this is 2015 and with a 12 team top division we're a yo-yo team!

[shull]

Are we doon yet ?

[pod]

Well, lets hope there's only one way and that is up next season.

[windae cleaner]

Well I'm not yet 30 and I've seen us relegated from the top flight 3 times already. I'm not saying we are the most relegated club in Scotland or anything.

I'm just saying we are the kind of club where relegation and promotion will happen on a relatively regular basis. We're certainly not alone in that regard, indeed most teams in Scotland fall under that bracket.

Jinx

[Magic Monkey]

TopCat - I think that's a decent post. What I would say, though, is that of the three relegations in our lifetime, this one hurts the most.

I was probably too young in 1992, but having spunked money on fancy signings, and avoided relegation via reconstruction shortly before, the writing was sort-of on the wall. Of course, with hindsight, the wilderness years that followed were horrific, but I know talking to my Grampa at the time, he just hoped we'd bounce back relatively quickly.

The 2000/1 season, I dunno, did ever feel like we truly belonged? We'd almost been promoted too soon, according to The Plan, anyway - Hendrie performed a bit of a miracle, really. Our year in the SPL was hamstrung by the cost of that f**king stand, and while we put up a bit of a fight, it had an air of inevitability to it.

This one is sore for me because 1) we've been in the league for a good while now 2) the league is of a really poor standard, so survival really should be a formality for a well run club (I know, I know...) and 3) the sheer lack of fight in the team has been a bit embarrassing.

This hasn't been a 'rip the plaster off' sort of relegation - denied on the final day or something - this has been death by a thousand cuts. f**king purgatory since day one.

We've failed to score in 20 games this season so far. 20! And just kept the two clean sheets. We could put together a convincing XI of players who have played for us this season who are nowhere near worth a shot at our level.

So yes, while you're absolutely right, it is cyclical and we are of a size that the occasional relegation is to be expected, this does feel like a sore one.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Magic Monkey

[TopCat]

Presuming we go down, we'll have been relegated 6 times in our history. I think there have been about 86 seasons where we could have been relegated.

Dunfermline, just as a comparison, have been relegated 11 times.

Of course for the majority of those seasons we were playing in an 18 or more team top flight. We are thankfully (mostly) in the top 18 in Scotland. When the size of the top flight cut was cut we - unsurprisingly - started getting relegated more regularly.

I just had a look at our league form through the 60's. Here's how we done. We had just one season outside of an 18 team top flight:

1960: 14th

1961: 14th

1962: 16th

1963: 12th

1964: 12th

1965: 15th

1966: 16th

1967: 17th and relegated

1968: 2nd div Champions and promoted.

1969: 11th

Remarkably consistent, I won't go into the 70's as they were even worse (We finished 29th in Scotland in 1974!). It would seem our trouble getting into the top half of the top flight is not a new phenomenon. If you go back to the fifties and even the pre war era the league finishes are relatively similar. The vast majority of the time we finish somewhere between 8th and 18th in Scotland with the odd good season above that and bad season below it.

Had there been a 12 team top league back then we'd have certainly been a yo-yo club.

Our golden era in terms of league finishes came in the late 70's and early 80's. Similar to Motherwell recently, we established ourself in the top half of the top flight for a few seasons, not for long though. This was undoubtedly a direct result of us being managed by the greatest manager in the history of football. Once he left and his affect started to wear off, we regressed back to our mean of between 8th and 18th.

We have remained between those positions since, we will be there for the majority of our future too. Of course it's natural to hope for more, and I'm sure one day we will get back in the top 6 or 7 in the country again. We will probably drop outside the top 18 in Scotland at some point again too, then the hand wringing, stress and angst really will be justified.

We will always go back to between 8th and 18th though, that's our natural position. Is being there worth getting stressed over?

Edited April 9, 2015 by TopCat

[magnus]

Of course for the majority of those seasons we were playing in an 18 or more team top flight. We are thankfully (mostly) in the top 18 in Scotland. When the size of the top flight cut was cut we - unsurprisingly - started getting relegated more regularly.

I just had a look at our league form through the 60's. Here's how we done. We had just one season outside of an 18 team top flight:

1960: 14th

1961: 14th

1962: 16th

1963: 12th

1964: 12th

1965: 15th

1966: 16th

1967: 17th and relegated

1968: 2nd div Champions and promoted.

1969: 11th

Remarkably consistent, I won't go into the 70's as they were even worse (We finished 29th in Scotland in 1974!). It would seem our trouble getting into the top half of the top flight is not a new phenomenon. If you go back to the fifties and even the pre war era the league finishes are relatively similar. The vast majority of the time we finish somewhere between 8th and 18th in Scotland with the odd good season above that and bad season below it.

Had there been a 12 team top league back then we'd have certainly been a yo-yo club.

Our golden era in terms of league finishes came in the late 70's and early 80's. Similar to Motherwell recently, we established ourself in the top half of the top flight for a few seasons, not for long though. This was undoubtedly a direct result of us being managed by the greatest manager in the history of football. Once he left and his affect started to wear off, we regressed back to our mean of between 8th and 18th.

We have remained between those positions since, we will be there for the majority of our future too. Of course it's natural to hope for more, and I'm sure one day we will get back in the top 6 or 7 in the country again. We will probably drop outside the top 18 in Scotland at some point again too, then the hand wringing, stress and angst really will be justified.

We will always go back to between 8th and 18th though, that's our natural position. Is being there worth getting stressed over?

18th yes 8th no

[shull]

Of course for the majority of those seasons we were playing in an 18 or more team top flight. We are thankfully (mostly) in the top 18 in Scotland. When the size of the top flight cut was cut we - unsurprisingly - started getting relegated more regularly.

I just had a look at our league form through the 60's. Here's how we done. We had just one season outside of an 18 team top flight:

1960: 14th

1961: 14th

1962: 16th

1963: 12th

1964: 12th

1965: 15th

1966: 16th

1967: 17th and relegated

1968: 2nd div Champions and promoted.

1969: 11th

Remarkably consistent, I won't go into the 70's as they were even worse (We finished 29th in Scotland in 1974!). It would seem our trouble getting into the top half of the top flight is not a new phenomenon. If you go back to the fifties and even the pre war era the league finishes are relatively similar. The vast majority of the time we finish somewhere between 8th and 18th in Scotland with the odd good season above that and bad season below it.

Had there been a 12 team top league back then we'd have certainly been a yo-yo club.

Our golden era in terms of league finishes came in the late 70's and early 80's. Similar to Motherwell recently, we established ourself in the top half of the top flight for a few seasons, not for long though. This was undoubtedly a direct result of us being managed by the greatest manager in the history of football. Once he left and his affect started to wear off, we regressed back to our mean of between 8th and 18th.

We have remained between those positions since, we will be there for the majority of our future too. Of course it's natural to hope for more, and I'm sure one day we will get back in the top 6 or 7 in the country again. We will probably drop outside the top 18 in Scotland at some point again too, then the hand wringing, stress and angst really will be justified.

We will always go back to between 8th and 18th though, that's our natural position. Is being there worth getting stressed over?

Great post.

I stopped getting stressed about St Mirren on the 17th Day of March 2013.

[Drew]

TC - much of what you say I can agree with, having followed the club for about as long as you have been on this earth, I have a good understanding of how things are.

We are simply applying a different interpretation. That's fine. For me, there is untapped potential for this club to kick on, and its very disappointing that it hasn't been realised more effectively.

As I suggested before, this is sport we are talking about, here, and all the old clichés apply. You know, be the best you can be, etc. Perhaps it is the taking part that matters, but it doesn't do any harm to have the ambition to win a bit more often.

[ss39Lavety]

St. Mirren will not be coming straight back up...

For anyone who hasn't been paying attention this season...here is how it unfolded...

First...they announced THAT strip...definitely the worst in the league...probably the country...relegation strip if ever one had been invented.

Then...they make the away strip even worse.

Then...they sack their manager...who I think everyone at the club understands now what a relatively decent job he was doing while in charge.

Then...instead of trying to take the club forward by appointing someone with a different vision...they give the job to someone who is not a manager...but a coach...this was done in order to save money on a wage...since TC was already on the payroll.

Then...they realise their mistake...but instead of correcting the mistake and appointing an actual manager...they take another step back and appoint Gary Teale...who is not a manager...in fact he is not even a coach...but he is on the payroll and thus they save on another wage.

Then...they sell their best player without a replacement...all of which is highly indicative of cash flow problems...not usually a sigh of a team coming straight back up.

St. Mirren have won 1 home game all season...in fact...to make it sound funnier...Inverness CT and Dundee have won more games in Paisley this season...probably a few more teams with better records in Paisley as well I'll bet.

The season then ends with a humiliating 5-0 thumping at Motherwell...on live Tv...confirming St. Mirren as the worst team in the worst Premiership in living memory.

As for the Championship...I think the top half at least in that division would be justifiably confident of beating St. Mirren...and that is before wage cuts etc kick in next season.

St. Mirren will be lucky to stay in the Championship beyond next year...At least they won the diddy cup in 2013 though...

[shull]

St. Mirren will not be coming straight back up...

For anyone who hasn't been paying attention this season...here is how it unfolded...

First...they announced THAT strip...definitely the worst in the league...probably the country...relegation strip if ever one had been invented.

Then...they make the away strip even worse.

Then...they sack their manager...who I think everyone at the club understands now what a relatively decent job he was doing while in charge.

Then...instead of trying to take the club forward by appointing someone with a different vision...they give the job to someone who is not a manager...but a coach...this was done in order to save money on a wage...since TC was already on the payroll.

Then...they realise their mistake...but instead of correcting the mistake and appointing an actual manager...they take another step back and appoint Gary Teale...who is not a manager...in fact he is not even a coach...but he is on the payroll and thus they save on another wage.

Then...they sell their best player without a replacement...all of which is highly indicative of cash flow problems...not usually a sigh of a team coming straight back up.

St. Mirren have won 1 home game all season...in fact...to make it sound funnier...Inverness CT and Dundee have won more games in Paisley this season...probably a few more teams with better records in Paisley as well I'll bet.

The season then ends with a humiliating 5-0 thumping at Motherwell...on live Tv...confirming St. Mirren as the worst team in the worst Premiership in living memory.

As for the Championship...I think the top half at least in that division would be justifiably confident of beating St. Mirren...and that is before wage cuts etc kick in next season.

St. Mirren will be lucky to stay in the Championship beyond next year...At least they won the diddy cup in 2013 though...

You're funny

All we need to do is bin the " relegation strip " and invent a " promotion strip ".

SORTIT !!!

Edited April 9, 2015 by shull