A New Low

[Mid Calder Saint]

TopCat.we surely must have better budgets than Livi who I watch training sometimes and can barely get 1000 paying customers at Almondvale. Dumbarton have a hard core of around 600 fans.Raith today sign Daly and get just over 1300 at their games.Something is badly wrong at our club in getting a decent squad together.I renewed our season tickets don't expect to win promotion but expected a damned sight better than we are getting.

[TopCat]

Lex the figure that was quoted is correct

A lot of bad decisions over the years is now haunting us.

As you say we have no sugar daddy and won't go into debt

We are more or less an U/21 team with a sprinkling of senior pros because that what we can afford

I feel sorry for the season ticket holders who stumped again in good numbers what is going to be another unpleasant season only in a lower league this time.

They never signed plenty of duff players who got paid off before their contracts were up

Or managers either

What figure? Aside from Hibs and Sevco no clubs in this league have outside investors. You saying the likes of QOTS are paying more than us...?

Our squad is no younger or older than most in the league. If we do get Webster we will have 4 of the most experienced players in the division with him, Thompson Langfield and Goodwin. Along with the likes of Watson and Carswell who both have over 100 games in the top flight and Agnew and Gow who both have more than 100 games at this level...

There's 8 experienced pros, and that's before we mention the likes of Kelly, Naismith and Ridgers who all have plenty of top flight games under their belt.

If we do get Webster the balance of the squad looks fine to me. It would certainly be more experienced than the likes of Falkirk and QOTS.

[TopCat]

TopCat.we surely must have better budgets than Livi who I watch training sometimes and can barely get 1000 paying customers at Almondvale. Dumbarton have a hard core of around 600 fans.Raith today sign Daly and get just over 1300 at their games.Something is badly wrong at our club in getting a decent squad together.I renewed our season tickets don't expect to win promotion but expected a damned sight better than we are getting.

Yes I agree we do have bigger budgets than all of them, that's my point.

[ds10]

The worst thing about the whole thing is the fact that Murray was assuring us all we were Championship contenders at the start of the season.

If he can get that so badly wrong, it sure doesn't give much confidence that he's got any clue what he's doing.

A little over a year ago we were 8th in the SPL; the idiotic decisions made by those in charge of the club over the past 15 months or so have totally destroyed this team.

Hopefully the extent of the damage is actually beginning to sink in now, because I don't see many signs that those in charge have the determination, energy or ability to turn this around.

[scottd]

You think this is bad..?

You ain't seen nothing yet... B...B....Baby...

Let's Rock!!!

[faraway saint]

That's bullshit. Gallacher was offered more money at another champ team

Proof?

Cannie wait for this cracker.......................

[windae cleaner]

Proof?

Cannie wait for this cracker.......................

Murray himself said it at the Q&A

[faraway saint]

Murray himself said it at the Q&A

I wisnae there, apologies.

[bluto]

The worst thing about the whole thing is the fact that Murray was assuring us all we were Championship contenders at the start of the season.

If he can get that so badly wrong, it sure doesn't give much confidence that he's got any clue what he's doing.

A little over a year ago we were 8th in the SPL; the idiotic decisions made by those in charge of the club over the past 15 months or so have totally destroyed this team.

Hopefully the extent of the damage is actually beginning to sink in now, because I don't see many signs that those in charge have the determination, energy or ability to turn this around.

Ok... Temporarily it does appear that the team has been destroyed in the space of 12 months.

The club is NOT destroyed.

And despite the evidence of recent results, I genuinely believe that a good group of players is now available. (And, of course, I still fantasise - along with IM - that he will be adding a couple more).

It IS shite that he has not managed to assemble them into a team yet, nor given them direction and purpose. That's IM's job and I am getting ALMOST as impatient as billyg...

[windae cleaner]

What figure? Aside from Hibs and Sevco no clubs in this league have outside investors. You saying the likes of QOTS are paying more than us...?

Our squad is no younger or older than most in the league. If we do get Webster we will have 4 of the most experienced players in the division with him, Thompson Langfield and Goodwin. Along with the likes of Watson and Carswell who both have over 100 games in the top flight and Agnew and Gow who both have more than 100 games at this level...

There's 8 experienced pros, and that's before we mention the likes of Kelly, Naismith and Ridgers who all have plenty of top flight games under their belt.

If we do get Webster the balance of the squad looks fine to me. It would certainly be more experienced than the likes of Falkirk and QOTS.

I'm saying £600 a week figure is correct

I can't speak for other clubs

The players at the part time clubs will be earning more with their other jobs

The club as a whole have misjudged how hard a league this is

Every game our youngsters are getting bullied

[bluto]

I wisnae there, apologies.

ooooh.

That's a surprise!

f**kin part-timer....

[TsuMirren]

I'm saying £600 a week figure is correct

I can't speak for other clubs

The players at the part time clubs will be earning more with their other jobs

The club as a whole have misjudged how hard a league this is

Every game our youngsters are getting bullied

Define bullied. I just see shite tactics that any team would struggle with. Pumping it up to Thommo, Goodwin leaving holes to maybe make a tackle, nobody holding it in midfield, backing off, no challenge until 40 yards out if that, no movement, stupid passes and no testing the keeper.

[windae cleaner]

Bullied = 4 players picking up second prizes last night

2 of which went to hospital

[TsuMirren]

Bullied = 4 players picking up second prizes last night

2 of which went to hospital

1 was clattered by the goalie, the other was a shocking tackle...neither were bullied. Who were the other two?

[rabuddies]

1 was clattered by the goalie,

One was deliberately pushed into the goalie!

[windae cleaner]

1 was clattered by the goalie, the other was a shocking tackle...neither were bullied. Who were the other two?

Howieson and Carswell

[Magic Monkey]

We are St Mirren. We are patient and we give promising young managers time. We are not a bunch of panic-merchants hiding behind internet aliases who want to chuck it every time a few results go against us.

Danny Lennon arrived at Saints with absolutely no clue whatsoever. The summer of Beath. We gave him time to learn the job, and he delivered one of the best days of my life.

Murray obviously has something. There is talent there, but he has yet to adapt to managing a full-time team, with higher expectations. Plus, he is dealing with an entirely new squad of players, many of whom will barely know each other.

I believe it will come. We will get better. Calm the f**k down everyone.

[TopCat]

I said it at the time he was appointed, have heard it from Dumbarton fans and apparently ex Saints players who played under Murray at Dumbarton have said the same thing.

That is.... Murray needs a strong assistant. He had two in Jack Ross and Guilleame Beuzelin at Dumbarton. Both of them were poached by full time clubs - Hearts and Accies - before Murray was. That fact alone probably tells it's own story of how the regimes were viewed from the outside.

Since Beuzelin left Dumbarton for Accies in January Murray worked without an official assistant but Spalding was on the coaching staff. In that period between January and May Dumbarton were the worst team in the Championship, they returned less points than anyone else.

Therefore it was a pretty big surprise to all concerned when Murray appointed Spalding as his assistant. What he really needed was a strong assistant with experience working in full time football, the kind of guy who would stand up to him and tell him when he's wrong. Someone in the Jimmy Nicol mould. Instead of doing that he appointed his mate and seemingly his yes man in Spalding.

Danny Lennon did a similar thing when he brought Ian Jenkins as his assistant. He was got rid of and the experienced Tommy Craig was brought in, unsurprisingly results and performances immediately improved.

Perhaps a similar change would result in a similar improvement...

[Callum Gilhooley]

I don't buy all this " we're rebuilding" give it time " stuff. Time is the one thing we don't have. Every other team in the league has to rebuild every season due to short contracts & loans etc. We seem to have been caught short & are some way behind our competitors in that aspect.

[ds10]

Danny Lennon arrived at Saints with absolutely no clue whatsoever. The summer of Beath. We gave him time to learn the job, and he delivered one of the best days of my life.

That's hardly a fair comparison. Lennon's situation was completely different from Murray.

Lennon took charge of a club two leagues above the club he was working at. OK he made the mistake of thinking that the players from Cowdenbeath would be able to cut it in the SPL, which wasn't really true with an exception or two. But he arrived with a clear plan on how he wanted the team to play, and a list of players he wanted to help carry this out. He changed the way that the team played in the first season and while it wasn't all that successful, there were signs of progress.

Murray on the other hand has taken charge of Saints in the same league he was already working in. Given that it seems only fair to expect that he would be familiar with the players at this level and have a good idea of the standards required to be successful in this league. However he appears to have totally misjudged the ability of the current squad. I see no evidence yet that he has any clear idea of how he wants the team to play. Or that he has any firm idea of the type of players that he wants to bring in to improve the squad.

So Murray is way behind what Lennon achieved, even in the summer of Beath season.

[nosferatu]

Danny Lennon arrived at Saints with absolutely no clue whatsoever. The summer of Beath.

I keep reading this and think its a bit of a myth.

That summer Lennon signed Darren McGregor from Beath. He was fantastic. He also signed Paul McGowan, Craig Samson, Jure Travner & Marc McAusland.

That's 5 guys who all were regulars that season and beyond.

I'd say that that close season was better than the last 2 he had.

[pozbaird]

We are St Mirren. We are patient and we give promising young managers time. We are not a bunch of panic-merchants hiding behind internet aliases who want to chuck it every time a few results go against us.

Danny Lennon arrived at Saints with absolutely no clue whatsoever. The summer of Beath. We gave him time to learn the job, and he delivered one of the best days of my life.

Murray obviously has something. There is talent there, but he has yet to adapt to managing a full-time team, with higher expectations. Plus, he is dealing with an entirely new squad of players, many of whom will barely know each other.

I believe it will come. We will get better. Calm the f**k down everyone.

Danny Lennon arrived at the club without a clue and had to find a way to take on Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United and Co. Murray should have at least had a clue about setting up to play Dumbarton and Livingston and the others still to come. To my eyes, he's getting his arse handed to him on a plate.

That isn't to say he doesn't deserve time, I said in an earlier post we must give him that time. However, and I am happy to stand corrected - what, so far, has he shown that makes anyone sit up and say 'Yeah, Murray is doing X, Y, or Z better than either Teale or Craig were'. I am very disappointed not to see it. Where the hell did our new manager bounce go to? I demand a stewards inquiry. Surely we deserved a wee bit of bouncy, bouncy before having our baws' booted and the enthusiasm sucked right out of our hearts and minds?

Edit: posted without seeing ds10s post!

Edited August 26, 2015 by pozbaird

[nosferatu]

But he arrived with a clear plan on how he wanted the team to play, and a list of players he wanted to help carry this out. He changed the way that the team played in the first season and while it wasn't all that successful, there were signs of progress.

Don't agree with that either.

First season's plan was blootering the ball up to Higdon & Wardlaw. A great tactic I might add.

The BoD weren't happy and got shot of Jenkins and brought in Tommy Craig to pull Danny's strings.

We then attempted to play like Barcelona.

[Drew]

Danny Lennon arrived at the club without a clue and had to find a way to take on Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United and Co. Murray should have at least had a clue about setting up to play Dumbarton and Livingston and the others still to come. To my eyes, he's getting his arse handed to him on a plate.

That isn't to say he doesn't deserve time, I said in an earlier post we must give him that time. However, and I am happy to stand corrected - what, so far, has he shown that makes anyone sit up and say 'Yeah, Murray is doing X, Y, or Z better than either Teale or Craig were'. I am very disappointed not to see it. Where the hell did our new manager bounce go to? I demand a stewards inquiry. Surely we deserved a wee bit of bouncy, bouncy before having our baws' booted and the enthusiasm sucked right out of our hearts and minds?

Edit: posted without seeing ds10s post!

I think Lennon got lucky (to a degree) with Higdon's goals saving us that first season.

Murray hasn't started with any player who can carry the team through a rough patch. Craig, and, during his early tenure, Teale, had McLean (granted McLean didn't really shine shine during Craig's time in charge).

For me, Murray has started at a lower base line. I'm sorry, but I think Thompson is all but done, and the same applies to Goodwin. I accept that the lower base line shouldn't be a major handicap as we are also in a lower league, but the point still remains that he has no single player who can turn a match. This is, in part, down to his own failure to sign such a player, but we don't know what he is operating with in terms of budget, and our lower league status is an impediment in terms of attracting the higher calibre players who might be available.

I'm not making excuses for Murray, far from it. He hasn't done a great deal to convince me that he can achieve anything better than a mid-table finish for us this season (and, as I've said previously, I'd take that right now). I do think he has a tough job on his hands, however. I didn't expect a new manager bounce. Too many changes and challenges to realistically expect that.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Drew

[oaksoft]

Murray should have at least had a clue about setting up to play Dumbarton and Livingston and the others still to come. To my eyes, he's getting his arse handed to him on a plate.

That isn't to say he doesn't deserve time,

I think those are fair comments.

Most people who make a step up career-wise go through an intense period of having their arse handed to them before they fathom out how to adapt.

Time is required. Certainly by Christmas, if he's not got things going in a positive direction I'd be concerned that he won't make it but it's obviously way too early at this stage.