We Are Down

[buddygreat]

We're the only team in professional football in Britain without a league win..says it all

[Stuart Dickson]

We've spoke about that before. Only three players who played in the final league game that season played in the first game of 74/75. Even then we were in 8th spot when Fergie came in a few months later. Difference back then was there was no transfer window. Fergie signed 4 or 5 players within a fortnight of becoming our boss (Munro , McDowell , Ferguson , Provan , Campbell etc) and we managed to scrape 6th place to be in the First division after reconstruction , and the rest is history. Sadly , can't really see any of our current players , Mallon apart , having any chance of playing successfully at the top level for us.

Billy, you've watched football for longer than I have. What is it about Stevie Mallan that makes you believe he's got the ability to have a football career at a higher level?

I can't see it at all. He's a central midfielder who can't do anything a central midfielder is supposed to do. He's not even scoring goals anymore and his set peices which were supposed to be his trade mark are f**king awful these days. I read excuses being made for him every week that he's been played too deep but that's what happens when your central midfield - of which he's a main part - don't control the game. To me the lad is just a poor version of his father.

[kevo_smfc]

It's very grim Billy I'm with  you in that if we go down it will be for a long time. Gate money will tumble . Remember Chick Young said on radio Scotland saying it would be a disaster when Gordon took over. I did not agree but bloody he'll.  This team is just not good enough. 

The chairman inherited a club already on the struggle. For some reason after the cup win in March 2013, the club has never recovered on the pitch. Could be for a number of reasons,though we now have a team that pretty much has no connection to the class of 2013. I still believe given time, Jack will get it right.Your answer to that could be, 'Yeah but how much time do we have?' Like others, he needs to be given his time to put things right and he has already shown more faith in our academy players than Raes signings.

Livingston under Mark Burchill pulled off one of the best escape acts from relegation ive seen, so we must as fans of the club, no matter how bleak it looks, pull together and continue to back the team, as without us the club will deteriorate financially and the morale on the playing side will sink deeper.

It hurts deeply right now yes, but lets stick together and hopefully we will see us turn a corner very soon.

[windae cleaner]

22 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

Billy, you've watched football for longer than I have. What is it about Stevie Mallan that makes you believe he's got the ability to have a football career at a higher level?

I can't see it at all. He's a central midfielder who can't do anything a central midfielder is supposed to do. He's not even scoring goals anymore and his set peices which were supposed to be his trade mark are f**king awful these days. I read excuses being made for him every week that he's been played too deep but that's what happens when your central midfield - of which he's a main part - don't control the game. To me the lad is just a poor version of his father.

 

 

I wouldn't judge Mallan's ability at the moment

There's better judges than us who rate him

He will be away in Jan i think to Hibs not Dundee who went public

Even sadder it will be sweeties as usual but his form and confidence at the moment we will be grateful for anything

[Stu]

7 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

It's very grim Billy I'm with  you in that if we go down it will be for a long time. Gate money will tumble . Remember Chick Young said on radio Scotland saying it would be a disaster when Gordon took over. I did not agree but bloody he'll.  This team is just not good enough. 

Chick Young is, to put it politely, a f**king moron. His nose has been put out of joint because it's no longer his pals on the board. He was apparently involved in some other takeover bid and he's probably pissed off his wee chum isn't our manager any more. He is the football punditry equivalent of morons like Billy Brown - an utter dinosaur who spouts nonsensical drivel (even more than I do). He thinks Jim Duffy should be the Scotland manager for Christ sake. Read this to see how utterly stupid he is: http://terracepodcast.net/a-list-of-every-stupid-thing-said-on-mondays-sportsound/

For reasons I've forgotten, I have a soft spot for Wolves. A few years back they got relegated from the Premiership and changed manager. He got the boot after they struggled in the league were knocked out of the FA Cup by Luton, who were in the Conference at the time. The replacement was Dean Saunders. Immediately this set alarm bells ringing for me. The previous season he'd taken over struggling Doncaster and got them relegated. Sure, they were doing well the following year - but you'd expect that from most relegated teams (us excluded) especially ones with a decent budget. A rather similar track record to Ross - and it ended with Wolves being relegated and Saunders getting sacked.

Despite that example I think, long term, Ross has the makings of a good manager. The performances have improved under him but the results have got worse. I have more confidence he'd improve things than Rae would have in a similar situation but I'll be honest and say that's probably more the heart ruling the head. He needs to get things sorted and fast. No stone should be left unturned - sports psychologists and the like - because it cannot possibly make the situation any worse.

It's all very good saying we can fix things in January but by then it could well be too late. We're already miles adrift and who is going to want to come to a club at the bottom of the Championship that will actually improve us? Signing the quality needed is going to cost a fortune, as is getting shot of the dross that shouldn't be at the club.

Finally, and I've said this before, I really wish we could move on from blaming former directors/managers/players for the clusterf**k of a shitstorm we find ourselves in. Sure, they all played their part but ultimately it makes f**k all difference who was responsible. What matters is putting things right.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Stu

[dr rotund]

We are not down. It only takes a couple of wins and we're right back in the mix, we're not getting thrashed every week and as Jack Ross said in the post match interview the players must continue to believe in what they're doing and work hard. That's the only way out of this.

[MenstrieSaint]

Spoiler

We are on the back of four years of very poor signings , of the fifty or so signing five have have been average and forty five have been pure garbage ( estimates , but not far off ) , I can,t ver remember Saints consistently making so many poor signings . We have some decent young players coming through , and will be rid of a few duffers at the end of the season , and I think JR will do well if he is allowed to develop his own squad . Relegation might be what is required for us to improve , and build together a young and exiting side ( there are a few good signs ) , I would also give consideration to signing part time players , and have the full timers in two evenings a week to train with them . Not holding out much for this transfer window .

 

 

[Sonny]

I reckon we have played better than Ayr, Dumbarton and Dunfermline in recent weeks but cannot score in spite of creating numerous chances. Against Dumbarton we apparently had 20 attempts on goal and could not put one of them away. The problem for me is the formation and only one striker in the squad who has limitations.

The only half decent striker is Sutton and even then I have never been a great fan as I think he has substantial flaws in his game. However he is good in the box at finding space and running on to a ball. He has to be facing the goal in my opinion to be effective. That means getting in behind the opposition defence and we have I believe players that can do that. However we need to start with a 4-5-1 formation allowing the wingers to hit the by-line. That also requires another decent midfielder and that is where the problem lies and besides Mallan and Magennis anyone else is making up the numbers (until Quinn is fit at any rate). My first signing in January would be an experienced midfielder who can allow Mallan to support Sutton. If we have any more money my second signing would be a striker - there must be one somewhere from Premier League squads that isn't getting a game then we can get on loan. So 4-5-1 another midfielder and striker and we are good to go

[Drew]

1 minute ago, Sonny said:

I reckon we have played better than Ayr, Dumbarton and Dunfermline in recent weeks but cannot score in spite of creating numerous chances. Against Dumbarton we apparently had 20 attempts on goal and could not put one of them away. The problem for me is the formation and only one striker in the squad who has limitations.

The only half decent striker is Sutton and even then I have never been a great fan as I think he has substantial flaws in his game. However he is good in the box at finding space and running on to a ball. He has to be facing the goal in my opinion to be effective. That means getting in behind the opposition defence and we have I believe players that can do that. However we need to start with a 4-5-1 formation allowing the wingers to hit the by-line. That also requires another decent midfielder and that is where the problem lies and besides Mallan and Magennis anyone else is making up the numbers (until Quinn is fit at any rate). My first signing in January would be an experienced midfielder who can allow Mallan to support Sutton. If we have any more money my second signing would be a striker - there must be one somewhere from Premier League squads that isn't getting a game then we can get on loan. So 4-5-1 another midfielder and striker and we are good to go

It was a bit frustrating watcing our young wide players feeling the need to always reach the byeline before putting a cross in. 

On occasion, crosses from deeper positions can be very effective.  Lappin was very good at this, and Sutton prospered from his deliveries.  Carey was also effective in this way.

An earlier cross from deeper is often more likely to catch defenders out of position.  I'd like to think that the coaching staff are working with McAllister and Morgan to develop their crossing skills in general, but, importantly, to hone this specific area of their game.

[Stuart Dickson]

4 minutes ago, Drew said:

It was a bit frustrating watcing our young wide players feeling the need to always reach the byeline before putting a cross in. 

On occasion, crosses from deeper positions can be very effective.  Lappin was very good at this, and Sutton prospered from his deliveries.  Carey was also effective in this way.

An earlier cross from deeper is often more likely to catch defenders out of position.  I'd like to think that the coaching staff are working with McAllister and Morgan to develop their crossing skills in general, but, importantly, to hone this specific area of their game.

I used to hate players that got to the bye line as a defender. Apart from the fact that you were now having to defend while running back to your goal, it also meant that the strikers you were tracking were out of your eyeline and could simply drop off for a cut back and leave you stranded. It was always far easier to defend the cross from deeper because you can defend whilst keeping your eye on everything in front of you. I also don't think the problem with the side lies on the shoulders of Lewis Morgan and Kyle McAllister, even though Morgan appeared to get pushed around far too easily yesterday. I also don't think Lappin, or Carey were particularly effective in open play. I know Lappin in particular used to frustrate the f**king life out of me as a player. 

 

19 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I reckon we have played better than Ayr, Dumbarton and Dunfermline in recent weeks but cannot score in spite of creating numerous chances. Against Dumbarton we apparently had 20 attempts on goal and could not put one of them away. The problem for me is the formation and only one striker in the squad who has limitations.

The only half decent striker is Sutton and even then I have never been a great fan as I think he has substantial flaws in his game. However he is good in the box at finding space and running on to a ball. He has to be facing the goal in my opinion to be effective. That means getting in behind the opposition defence and we have I believe players that can do that. However we need to start with a 4-5-1 formation allowing the wingers to hit the by-line. That also requires another decent midfielder and that is where the problem lies and besides Mallan and Magennis anyone else is making up the numbers (until Quinn is fit at any rate). My first signing in January would be an experienced midfielder who can allow Mallan to support Sutton. If we have any more money my second signing would be a striker - there must be one somewhere from Premier League squads that isn't getting a game then we can get on loan. So 4-5-1 another midfielder and striker and we are good to go

I didn't watch all of the Ayr game, but correct me if I'm wrong - didn't St Mirren only turn that match around, after they had gone to 3 at the back? I'm pretty sure Ross had taken off Clarkson and Baird and put on Shankland and Walsh in a pretty desperate move to get back on terms. It paid off. The lone striker thing just doesn't appear to be working. If it wasn't for the fact that St Mirren seem intent on carrying passengers like Stevie Mallan in the side I don't think they'd need three in central midfield. Indeed if St Mirren weren't so intent on attacking with players running in straight lines you could have three in the centre of midfield whilst playing with a midfield four. 

[div]

Didn't think we played particularly badly yesterday, but we are absolutely toothless up front despite having a plethora of strikers.

Personally whilst I think Sutton has to start every week, he's not particularly effective playing with Clarkson. I'd rather we persevered with either Hardie or Shankland as a strike partner alongside him.

The four midfielders who played yesterday are all fine players but we are very lightweight in there. If we could get Quinn fit then I'd actually be tempted to play him and Magennis along with Morgan and McAllister and bench Mallan.

Ben Gordon is not a great centre half IMO. Hopefully MacKenzie isn't out for long.

Keeper had a decent game yesterday IMO.

[Dave The Buddie]

We are not down. It only takes a couple of wins and we're right back in the mix, we're not getting thrashed every week and as Jack Ross said in the post match interview the players must continue to believe in what they're doing and work hard. That's the only way out of this.

It's only a couple of wins??? We haven't got one league win on the board with more than a 3rd of the season gone. We have just played or nearest rivals back to back at home and got beat off both. If only a couple of wins was as easy

[dr rotund]

3 minutes ago, Dave The Buddie said:

 

It's only a couple of wins??? We haven't got one league win on the board with more than a 3rd of the season gone. We have just played or nearest rivals back to back at home and got beat off both. If only a couple of wins was as easy

Ross has to try and get them to believe they are good enough to do this. A few wins will breed confidence if the players don't believe they can manage this then were almost certainly doomed. Remember back in the Hendrie era Dundee Utd were 12 points behind us at one stage and still managed to catch us, it can be done.

[Dave The Buddie]

Didn't think we played particularly badly yesterday, but we are absolutely toothless up front despite having a plethora of strikers.

Personally whilst I think Sutton has to start every week, he's not particularly effective playing with Clarkson. I'd rather we persevered with either Hardie or Shankland as a strike partner alongside him.

The four midfielders who played yesterday are all fine players but we are very lightweight in there. If we could get Quinn fit then I'd actually be tempted to play him and Magennis along with Morgan and McAllister and bench Mallan.

Ben Gordon is not a great centre half IMO. Hopefully MacKenzie isn't out for long.

Keeper had a decent game yesterday IMO.

The stats tell us that we were not the better team. Dunfermline had more possession, more shots and more shots on target and the most important Dunfermline beat us on goals scored.

If people believe we were good last night against our closest team in the league at home even though the stats say Dunfermline shaded it then I believe people are clutching at straws.

[div]

The stats tell us that we were not the better team. Dunfermline had more possession, more shots and more shots on target and the most important Dunfermline beat us on goals scored.

If people believe we were good last night against our closest team in the league at home even though the stats say Dunfermline shaded it then I believe people are clutching at straws.

I didn't say we were the better team, I also at no point described our performance as being "good".

[Dave The Buddie]

Ross has to try and get them to believe they are good enough to do this. A few wins will breed confidence if the players don't believe they can manage this then were almost certainly doomed. Remember back in the Hendrie era Dundee Utd were 12 points behind us at one stage and still managed to catch us, it can be done.

That is his job I know but he has had 6 unsuccessful cracks at this so far. I'm sorry but the old board have got to take some of the blame for the countless awful managerial appointments then made since Danny Lennon and GLS in appointing a rookie who's only achievement in management is relegation from the league we are currently trying to survive in.

[Stuart Dickson]

6 minutes ago, Dave The Buddie said:

 

 

The stats tell us that we were not the better team. Dunfermline had more possession, more shots and more shots on target and the most important Dunfermline beat us on goals scored.

If people believe we were good last night against our closest team in the league at home even though the stats say Dunfermline shaded it then I believe people are clutching at straws.

 

 

You don't really need stats to know Dunfermline were the better team. Just one working eye in your head. St Mirrens performance yesterday looked almost exactly the same as the pathetic effort they put in at Cappielow. And the only reason the defeat wasn't heavier was that Dunfermline seemed content to waste time rather than go for the jugular. 

The only improvement I can see in the St Mirren play is that they've now cut out the ineffective passing the ball around the back four before lumping the ball up the park. Now, instead, it's just the two centre halves that pass the ball around the back before lumping the ball forward. I guess this is the evidence that Jack Ross's higher tempo training sessions at Ralston are working.  

[Dave The Buddie]

I didn't say we were the better team, I also at no point described our performance as being "good".

Ok well I don't agree that we didn't play particularly badly last night.

IMO we played badly

[Seaside Nipper]

35 minutes ago, Dave The Buddie said:

 

 

The stats tell us that we were not the better team. Dunfermline had more possession, more shots and more shots on target and the most important Dunfermline beat us on goals scored.

If people believe we were good last night against our closest team in the league at home even though the stats say Dunfermline shaded it then I believe people are clutching at straws.

 

 

Yup, and the stats that truly matter are..........

Four points from forty two. Oops, Edit ! Thirteen only played, so Thirty nine ! So not that bad then 

2126 in attendance at the most recent home game.

a -15 goal difference

five managers in a couple of seasons

Conclusion.............?

A lost club still in free fall

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by Seaside Nipper

[TediousTom]

My mood is low, low indeed.  In all honesty I am becoming absolutely sick of my football team at the moment.  If we cast our minds back to the 1990's you will recall our team going within one goal of relegation to the (then) second division.  A young Hugh Murray scored the goal away to Stirling Albion that in all probability saved the Saint Mirren professional football club pte ltd co.

 

That team were poor, we played a host of youngsters.  They bloody well tried hard though and even won the occasional game.  At that time we all accepted that our club were in financial difficulty and we as supporters stuck behind the team, they deserved it.

 

This pish poor squad are remarkably bad and definetely worse than the team that almost went to thy (then) second division.  

 

What I find impossible to accept is that this group of shyster's have no excuse.  No excuse's at all.

 

Unlike the 1990's these hopeless wage thieves have a custom built training complex, the club has shed its financial millstone and is now in a position to pay competitive wages with regard to the league we find ourselves in.  We even have a new stadium, a fans council of decent people doing great things to assist the club, a fancy new bar in the stadium (that no-one has invited me to yet) and a decent fan base of people paying top dollar (well pound sterling) for season tickets.  

 

These wasters at our club have no excuse and I can accept it no more.  

[Lord Pityme]

I am not surprised at the results we have got, and the lack of points. Jack Ross hasnt managed for a year yet, and in that time his only achievement has been to get his club relegated. Why did anyone expect he would suddenly turn round our fortunes? He has no experience to fall back on, save for getting relegated.

another rookie manager appointment that has and will fail like the others. Why is it under the brutal football we played with Rae, we got a couple of points, but with this ne improved football under Ross every f**ker beats us?

[dmc]

Not gonna pretend I ain't getting a little enjoyment from this!!  I reckon you will stay up though!! Just for the record, when was the last time St Mirren were above Morton in the league?

[paisleysaint]

10 minutes ago, dmc said:

Not gonna pretend I ain't getting a little enjoyment from this!!  I reckon you will stay up though!! Just for the record, when was the last time St Mirren were above Morton in the league?

I have to admit that is a good question although I am also wondering when was the last time that Morton were in the top flight of Scottish Football? 

[dmc]

1 hour ago, paisleysaint said:

I have to admit that is a good question although I am also wondering when was the last time that Morton were in the top flight of Scottish Football? 

Touche!!

[Dirty Sanchez]

4 hours ago, dmc said:

Just for the record, when was the last time St Mirren were above Morton in the league?

That would be 20th October last year.

Oh, and for 38 of the previous 40 years.

Just  a generation, or two.