beyond our ken Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Hendo said: Currently vaccine rates are over 80%, however 65% of people in hospital with covid are double vaccinated. That means it is having some effect - if it wasn't that figure would be at the same level as the vaccination rate - but you can't say that it is doing a fantastic job when almost two thirds of people with serious illness have had the vaccine. I get that this is scary for people to hear as the vaccine is all we have, but the facts are it's not been nearly as effective as they had hoped. They did rush it through which is perhaps the reason for that, but this is yet another false narrative, that the vaccine is more effective than it is. Compare its effectiveness for instance to the MMR, which has virtually eradicated these three diseases in children. That is something of a cursory sweep through vaccination history with a heavy pinch of opinion thrown in. The MMR was around for decades as individual vaccines before being combined in one jab decades ago. they didnt achieve their results in a matter of months. Add to that these diseases, TB and others are on the increase in some places due to misinformation, disinformation, complacency and opinion affecting the thinking of parents. as the centre for evidence based medicine explains COVID vaccines are extremely effective, but none 100% so. This itself isn’t surprising – flu vaccines aren’t 100% effective either. Yet in the US alone flu vaccines are estimated to prevent millions of cases of illness, tens of thousands of hospitalisations and thousands of deaths every year. The COVID vaccines are doing the same in the UK right now – all one has to do is compare the curves from the winter wave with those from this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 30 minutes ago, beyond our ken said: That is something of a cursory sweep through vaccination history with a heavy pinch of opinion thrown in. The MMR was around for decades as individual vaccines before being combined in one jab decades ago. they didnt achieve their results in a matter of months. Add to that these diseases, TB and others are on the increase in some places due to misinformation, disinformation, complacency and opinion affecting the thinking of parents. as the centre for evidence based medicine explains COVID vaccines are extremely effective, but none 100% so. This itself isn’t surprising – flu vaccines aren’t 100% effective either. Yet in the US alone flu vaccines are estimated to prevent millions of cases of illness, tens of thousands of hospitalisations and thousands of deaths every year. The COVID vaccines are doing the same in the UK right now – all one has to do is compare the curves from the winter wave with those from this summer. COVID vaccines are not extremely effective - that's not a criticism, it is a new vaccine developed quickly, but what we now know is it doesn't stop transmission, reduces the risk of serious illness to a degree but doesn't stop you catching it, and protection reduces within a few months. That is not the definition of extremely effective. When the vaccine was developed, the talk was you needed 70% of the population vaccinated to achieve "herd immunity" where the disease would die out - we are way past that figure and still in this position - whatever way you slice it, the vaccine has not been nearly as effective as hoped. I took a bad reaction from my second dose - I also believe I had covid last year before testing was available - and the reaction to the vaccine was every bit as bad as the illness. I have therefore decided, on balance, not to have the booster. This is my right, as it is your right to make the decision to have it. However, unfortunately we are now on the slippery slope to discriminating against those who make the "wrong" choice. Scary times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Hendo said: COVID vaccines are not extremely effective - that's not a criticism, it is a new vaccine developed quickly, but what we now know is it doesn't stop transmission, reduces the risk of serious illness to a degree but doesn't stop you catching it, and protection reduces within a few months. That is not the definition of extremely effective. When the vaccine was developed, the talk was you needed 70% of the population vaccinated to achieve "herd immunity" where the disease would die out - we are way past that figure and still in this position - whatever way you slice it, the vaccine has not been nearly as effective as hoped. I took a bad reaction from my second dose - I also believe I had covid last year before testing was available - and the reaction to the vaccine was every bit as bad as the illness. I have therefore decided, on balance, not to have the booster. This is my right, as it is your right to make the decision to have it. However, unfortunately we are now on the slippery slope to discriminating against those who make the "wrong" choice. Scary times. Would you consider it really on balance when you are using a sample of one (yourself) against the globally available stats now that show the risks from the virus are far worse than from the vaccine? Having a bad reaction to the last vaccine doesn't mean you will again. Conversely, having mild symptoms of the virus before, doesn't mean it will be mild again if you catch it a second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 The vaccines certainly work to an extent, but because they don't stop transmission of the virus, it's always going to be a tough sell to convince people that taking several more boosters to be classed as fully vaccinated is the right way to go. An Israeli health minister recently stated that it's going to take 7 boosters, possibly more, for Israeli's to be considered fully vaccinated. As I said earlier in the thread - MRNA vaccine technology is designed to allow boosters for the latest variant, but there is a counter theory that it could also encourage ADE (antibody dependent enhancement) Are people willing to commit to a booster once every 6 months (possibly even less) to maintain their fully vaccinated status? Is it a matter of time before you have a bad reaction to one of them? Will we ever be considered fully vaccinated? These are the important questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 The vaccines certainly work to an extent, but because they don't stop transmission of the virus, it's always going to be a tough sell to convince people that taking several more boosters to be classed as fully vaccinated is the right way to go. An Israeli health minister recently stated that it's going to take 7 boosters, possibly more, for Israeli's to be considered fully vaccinated. As I said earlier in the thread - MRNA vaccine technology is designed to allow boosters for the latest variant, but there is a counter theory that it could also encourage ADE (antibody dependent enhancement) Are people willing to commit to a booster once every 6 months (possibly even less) to maintain their fully vaccinated status? Is it a matter of time before you have a bad reaction to one of them? Will we ever be considered fully vaccinated? These are the important questionsI can't seem to find the quote of the Israeli Health Minister Nitzan Horowitz regarding 7 boosters. If he didn't say it, it sort of makes a mockery of what you've written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Doakes said: The vaccines certainly work to an extent, but because they don't stop transmission of the virus, it's always going to be a tough sell to convince people that taking several more boosters to be classed as fully vaccinated is the right way to go. An Israeli health minister recently stated that it's going to take 7 boosters, possibly more, for Israeli's to be considered fully vaccinated. As I said earlier in the thread - MRNA vaccine technology is designed to allow boosters for the latest variant, but there is a counter theory that it could also encourage ADE (antibody dependent enhancement) Are people willing to commit to a booster once every 6 months (possibly even less) to maintain their fully vaccinated status? Is it a matter of time before you have a bad reaction to one of them? Will we ever be considered fully vaccinated? These are the important questions The year is 2028. "Medication time" is proclaimed from the loudspeaker in the city centre. The people obediently line up for their 25th booster jag against "the rona". A picture of Chris Whitty is revealed on the billboards and the crowd go wild with chants of "we love you Chris" breaking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbriansaint72 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Oh ffs!!!!! Watching this crap by old Doris. How the hell this clown bluffed his way in is beyond me. The old crap especially with face coverings is fine BUT believe it or not WE cannot enforce it on buses, not allowed to question it, etc, etc. All they have to say is 'I'm exempt' 🤬🤬🤬 Should no mask, no travel, tough luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 7 hours ago, Hendo said: COVID vaccines are not extremely effective - that's not a criticism, it is a new vaccine developed quickly, but what we now know is it doesn't stop transmission, reduces the risk of serious illness to a degree but doesn't stop you catching it, and protection reduces within a few months. That is not the definition of extremely effective. When the vaccine was developed, the talk was you needed 70% of the population vaccinated to achieve "herd immunity" where the disease would die out - we are way past that figure and still in this position - whatever way you slice it, the vaccine has not been nearly as effective as hoped. I took a bad reaction from my second dose - I also believe I had covid last year before testing was available - and the reaction to the vaccine was every bit as bad as the illness. I have therefore decided, on balance, not to have the booster. This is my right, as it is your right to make the decision to have it. However, unfortunately we are now on the slippery slope to discriminating against those who make the "wrong" choice. Scary times. In Scotland 80% have had the first vaccination, almost 73% the 2nd, which is hardly "way past that figure. Only 41% have had the booster. As for your "bad reaction", plenty of people have had to be hospitalised, and, sadly passed away WITH Covid, I'd say that was FAR worse than your version of a bad reaction. As you don't know if you had Covid then that's really a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbriansaint72 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 So far the jist of this crap tonight is that the village idiot isn't going to act until after new year when case numbers will rocket out of control because...................basically this time of year is a great time for bringing finances in tax wise. Can't wait til january😡🤬🤬🤬🤬 Don't know if anyone's noticed having a good rant🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 (edited) Rather than just focusing on the rise in numbers, the staggering rise in testing is helping us to detect the virus, yet the percentage in the rise in numbers is just over 1%. Today, 61,011 new tests were reported, which is an increase from yesterdays figure of 29,558. From those 61,011, 9.1% were positive. We are currently conducting an average of 44,472 tests per day. This is an increase from this time last week, when it was 33,912 a day. Over the past 7 days, 9.8% of all tests conducted have been positive. This is an increase from this time a week ago, when that figure was 8.7%. Edited December 15, 2021 by faraway saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmettroll Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said: I can't seem to find the quote of the Israeli Health Minister Nitzan Horowitz regarding 7 boosters. If he didn't say it, it sort of makes a mockery of what you've written. The Australian government has ordered 135 million doses of vaccines and more if needed, with a population of 25 million that's at least 5 vaccines per head, unless there planning on vaccinating the kangaroos, koala bears and snakes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALBIONSAINT Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 21 minutes ago, faraway saint said: Rather than just focusing on the rise in numbers, the staggering rise in testing is helping us to detect the virus, yet the percentage in the rise in numbers is just over 1%. Today, 61,011 new tests were reported, which is an increase from yesterdays figure of 29,558. From those 61,011, 9.1% were positive. We are currently conducting an average of 44,472 tests per day. This is an increase from this time last week, when it was 33,912 a day. Over the past 7 days, 9.8% of all tests conducted have been positive. This is an increase from this time a week ago, when that figure was 8.7%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 The Australian government has ordered 135 million doses of vaccines and more if needed, with a population of 25 million that's at least 5 vaccines per head, unless there planning on vaccinating the kangaroos, koala bears and snakes...Don't be daft, they will only do the koalas as they are easy to catch.Sent from my SM-A415F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALBIONSAINT Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 4 hours ago, Doakes said: The vaccines certainly work to an extent, but because they don't stop transmission of the virus, it's always going to be a tough sell to convince people that taking several more boosters to be classed as fully vaccinated is the right way to go. An Israeli health minister recently stated that it's going to take 7 boosters, possibly more, for Israeli's to be considered fully vaccinated. As I said earlier in the thread - MRNA vaccine technology is designed to allow boosters for the latest variant, but there is a counter theory that it could also encourage ADE (antibody dependent enhancement) Are people willing to commit to a booster once every 6 months (possibly even less) to maintain their fully vaccinated status? Is it a matter of time before you have a bad reaction to one of them? Will we ever be considered fully vaccinated? These are the important questions Very interesting, I found what looks like a legitimate peer reviewed article on this subject........read it all but a bit technical, however the conclusion seems fairly easy to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 In Scotland 80% have had the first vaccination, almost 73% the 2nd, which is hardly "way past that figure. Only 41% have had the booster. As for your "bad reaction", plenty of people have had to be hospitalised, and, sadly passed away WITH Covid, I'd say that was FAR worse than your version of a bad reaction. As you don't know if you had Covid then that's really a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said: Very interesting, I found what looks like a legitimate peer reviewed article on this subject........read it all but a bit technical, however the conclusion seems fairly easy to understand. Oh don't come on here with your "research" that doubts the efficacy of our wonderful wonderful vaccine. Do not even suggest the booster might make things worse, our best scientists worked out after two days that the previous vaccine didn't work but the booster, which is essentially the same stuff, would, and it's been peer reviewed by Johnny Ball, and that's the truth, so just get your booster, OK. Bloody conspiracy theorist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said: The numbers I quoted didn't include "children". Edited December 15, 2021 by faraway saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALBIONSAINT Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 4 hours ago, Cookie Monster said: I can't seem to find the quote of the Israeli Health Minister Nitzan Horowitz regarding 7 boosters. If he didn't say it, it sort of makes a mockery of what you've written. Your right it wasn’t the health minister, it was a professor who was in the same news article...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 The astronomical rise in cases in South Africa...................... Not so astronomical numbers of deaths................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 3 hours ago, faraway saint said: The astronomical rise in cases in South Africa...................... Not so astronomical numbers of deaths................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmac Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 3 hours ago, faraway saint said: The astronomical rise in cases in South Africa...................... Not so astronomical numbers of deaths................ I am reluctant to get involved in this debate, but I really hope the theory that this is a much less serious strain is true and I have been told that in general viruses change to be more transmittable but less deadly, but I don't think these graphs show that for the new variant as if it is going to kill you, you don't drop dead the day you are tested as positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 I am reluctant to get involved in this debate, but I really hope the theory that this is a much less serious strain is true and I have been told that in general viruses change to be more transmittable but less deadly, but I don't think these graphs show that for the new variant as if it is going to kill you, you don't drop dead the day you are tested as positive.I've said that previously, but so hope it's not down to South Africa having a younger average age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleySaint Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 I think that is very much one of the theories being put forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, ianmac said: I am reluctant to get involved in this debate, but I really hope the theory that this is a much less serious strain is true and I have been told that in general viruses change to be more transmittable but less deadly, but I don't think these graphs show that for the new variant as if it is going to kill you, you don't drop dead the day you are tested as positive. Reasonable assumption. South Africa have had this variant for 5 weeks, not exactly "days" and, at this point, have seen no increase in hospital admissions or deaths. The cases, as high as they are, are also leveling off. They are also some way behind us in the vaccinations coverage, only 24%. Edited December 16, 2021 by faraway saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 7 hours ago, Cookie Monster said: I've said that previously, but so hope it's not down to South Africa having a younger average age. They do indeed, but, surprised you forgot this, we have a far superior health service, the one we've been "protecting" over the last 18 months, well, most of us. They are also some way behind us in the vaccinations coverage, only 24%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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