Coronavirus

[linwood buddie]

Mihail Popescu’s  mob had a covid breakout last week ,says initially 19 tested positive through all staff and players .

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

What a predictable reply. Your lack of self awareness is shining through once more.

Byw, I didn't say you were looking for sympathy or empathy. Let's face it though, as you don't possess either of these qualities you could do with any donations.

Your post was condescending and full of sanctimonious shite.

I'm really not sure what else you were expecting. 🤣

[Doakes]

[portmahomack saint]

5 hours ago, Sue Denim said:

Cut and pasted from a nationalist website, no doubt without even reading the article.

The obvious intention of TPAFTWAT is to claim that the BBC say one thing about Wales and another about Scotland.

In actual fact, the Wales story is not by the BBC but is about a study by Public Health Wales which claims that throwing old folk out of hospitals and into care homes didn’t cause the care home catastrophe. ( and you would expect them to claim that, wouldn’t you - they are hardly going to blame themselves!)

The Scotland story was about last night’s disclosure programme which was a bit more independent. 
 

Yet again, TPAFTWAT’s deceitful agenda shines through. 

 

 

I smell more shite..... why don't you pap your bum down here Susan next to me 

 

[oaksoft]

8 hours ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

The politicians are not having to try very hard to hide behind the science as the scientists have put themselves out there like massive oak trees for the politicians to keek round. Their failure to question the "political" decisions is also dubious. As you alluded to the scientific guys and gals all over the UK are loving their days in the sun and that in turn is playing right into all the politicians hands. Why are they standing there backing masks (and by standing on the same platforms saying nothing to the contrary they are backing them) if they know they do very little good ?

Agreed. Some of the behaviour from scientists has been infuriating. They are so caught up in the drug of publicity, the recognition and being seen to be important that they are almost certainly unaware that politicians are using them as a shield.

The masks thing is a really odd one. People have been wearing masks for more years than most of us have been alive (mostly in south east Asia). If there was firm science that these were effective we would know about it by now. Not only that, we would know exactly how those masks would need to be manufactured, what materials were needed and how they needed to be fitted. We would have known this YEARS ago. I'm prepared to accept that masks might have some effect but in exchange for a serious inconvenience I expect a detailed scientific basis for this and I expect them to tell me exactly what type of mask is needed based on evidence. Apparently "science" is saying that a scarf or a jumper over the face is fine? A scarf or a jumper? Do me a fecking favour. This is just treating us like bloody idiots and for me, this is the red line.

IMO the masks thing is probably Sturgeon's way of digging herself out of an overly prolonged lockdown without it looking like she was over-cautious this past few months. I think she's been badgering scientists to say that masks have SOME effect where "some" means a very vague "well it won't do any harm and it MIGHT help". To stay in favour they will be prepared to back that statement.

There have been zero covid deaths for about a fortnight now and very few new cases. At some point we have to attempt a return to normality. What exactly is she waiting for? Negative deaths? Is she waiting for people to come back to life? There are people who are ACTUALLY ill from cancer and other illnesses, who urgently require medical treatment. We also have 3 million unemployed and a further 9 million on furlough, many of whom may be facing no work in 2 months time. Enough is enough.

Anyway, that's a fantastic rant for 4.40am. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by oaksoft

[Russian Saint]

[Ayrshire Saints]

Agreed. Some of the behaviour from scientists has been infuriating. They are so caught up in the drug of publicity, the recognition and being seen to be important that they are almost certainly unaware that politicians are using them as a shield.
The masks thing is a really odd one. People have been wearing masks for more years than most of us have been alive (mostly in south east Asia). If there was firm science that these were effective we would know about it by now. Not only that, we would know exactly how those masks would need to be manufactured, what materials were needed and how they needed to be fitted. We would have known this YEARS ago. I'm prepared to accept that masks might have some effect but in exchange for a serious inconvenience I expect a detailed scientific basis for this and I expect them to tell me exactly what type of mask is needed based on evidence. Apparently "science" is saying that a scarf or a jumper over the face is fine? A scarf or a jumper? Do me a fecking favour. This is just treating us like bloody idiots and for me, this is the red line.
IMO the masks thing is probably Sturgeon's way of digging herself out of an overly prolonged lockdown without it looking like she was over-cautious this past few months. I think she's been badgering scientists to say that masks have SOME effect where "some" means a very vague "well it won't do any harm and it MIGHT help". To stay in favour they will be prepared to back that statement.
There have been zero covid deaths for about a fortnight now and very few new cases. At some point we have to attempt a return to normality. What exactly is she waiting for? Negative deaths? Is she waiting for people to come back to life? There are people who are ACTUALLY ill from cancer and other illnesses, who urgently require medical treatment. We also have 3 million unemployed and a further 9 million on furlough, many of whom may be facing no work in 2 months time. Enough is enough.
Anyway, that's a fantastic rant for 4.40am. [emoji38]

All fair enough although it's not just NS recommending face coverings and in Spain for example you have to wear them just out walking on the street. It seems the "science" is similar no matter whose delivering the info. Furlough is being phased out, I don't have an issue with that and I fully expect the small sectors not reopened to do so before it fully ends. I think the eggs are in the shielding and schools basket. Shielding ends this weekend and I expect once schools go back and there is no major issues 3-4 weeks down the line we will see Gyms, softplays etc reopening. Unfortunately I see masks and SD remaining until we either have the pandemic announced as ended or an effective vaccine is rolled out. If it's only masks and SD and all other aspects of business and the NHS ( have to say my ongoing treatments have been restarted for weeks) are restarted by say end September then that would be a decent outcome but even Boris is becoming increasingly concerned by the fabled 2nd wave (extension of self isolation period a good example just today) so we need to hope his likes are being overly pessimistic. Football return in some way by end October hopefully.

[Bud the Baker]

13 hours ago, Sue Denim said:

Let’s assume that we’d closed all borders at the start of January and not a single case of Covid had slipped through.

What would we have achieved?

The average person who has died with Covid has been beyond the age of life expectancy and had 2 other co morbidities. These are people who would have died in the months to come, either from their other morbidities or from catching some other virus or illness. 
 

If lockdown works - and I don’t believe it does - then we could lockdown every winter to prolong the lives of these vulnerable people for a few more months.

But you wouldn’t support that, would you?

If you were in a care home in your 80s with dementia and heart disease, would you really want the rest of the population to lockdown in order that you didn’t catch a virus and prolong your life by a few weeks?

I know I certainly wouldn’t. 
 

And let’s say we had avoided any Covid infections, this spring. What then? Keep the borders closed until a vaccine comes along?
 

Let’s say a vaccine comes along by next summer, the fact is that most of the vulnerable group will already have died. It would be pointless. 

And what if an effective vaccine takes years to come along? Stay shut until then?

And just a final point on New Zealand.
 

The fact is that scientists don’t really know how respiratory viruses are spread. They don’t know why these viruses are seasonal, where virus go between the seasons, why epidemics are so explosive and end so abruptly and various other conundrums.

Different countries in different parts of the world have been affected differently and we don’t really know why.

Maybe being an island and closing borders early ‘saved’ New Zealand. But then again, New Zealand is far south. It’s interesting that, in South America, the experience of Argentina and Uruguay is markedly different from day, Brazil, Peru, Mexico, etc.

Maybe New Zealand will suffer when they reopen? Unless they plan to stay closed forever? 

People have looked at South Korea’s aggressive test and trace programme as the reason why they haven’t been as badly affected. Yet Japan did bugger all testing and didn’t lockdown and wasn’t badly affected either.

Is it to do with obesity? Vitamin D? Sunlight? Temperature? Humidity? Other factors?

The fact is that we just don’t know.

In my opinion, attempts to stop this virus is akin to King Canute attempting to stop the tide.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870528/

I don't really like your social Darwinism but I agree with that there is so much contradictory evidence about the pandemic that anyone who claims to have all the answers is fooling themselves but as I've said pretty much all along we should err on the side of caution so I've supported the lockdown flawed as it has been, and I can point you to a Guardian article by • David Hunter is the Richard Doll professor of epidemiology and medicine at the University of Oxford; Neil Pearce is professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine

Quote

• If Britain ditches overseas holidays, we can eliminate coronavirus

The Spanish travel U-turn should inspire us to emulate other islands and wipe out Covid-19. The benefits would be huge

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/29/britain-ditches-overseas-travel-coronavirus-spanish-covid-19

I've let my passport lapse, I'll never go abroad again. My main disappointment with the article is that the suggestion that we should bail out international airways - an unnecessary extravagance. It'll never happen not now that BJ has abandoned his "Fuck Business" persona! 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I smell more shite..... why don't you pap your bum down here Susan next to me 
 

I thought it was only bazil and oaksoft who were still reading posts from Andy's current alias.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/29/britain-ditches-overseas-travel-coronavirus-spanish-covid-19
I've let my passport lapse, I'll never go abroad again. My main disappointment with the article is that the suggestion that we should bail out international airways - an unnecessary extravagance. It'll never happen not now that BJ has abandoned his "Fuck Business" persona! 

So that's Andy and oaksoft both taking the they would've died anyway approach.
Thin the herd and help the economy. Couple of sociopathic twats

[antrin]

I think a reality is that we will NEVER eliminate the threat of cv19, being an island or not, being tough on travel or no...

It will persist, we are not going to become a planet of utterly detached countries with non- travelling residents.  You can't turn back time.

We need to be able to inoculate against it and persist in doing so.  A vaccine will be found and will eventually be available to all, worldwide.

 

The belief that people of "a certain age would have died anyway" is not backed by data.  It's a slipshod fallacy.

If you have reached 80 yo the actuarial odds are you will live at least another 9 years.  If you turn 80, are overweight, and a smoker  with an underlying health condition, the numbers suggest you can carry on for a further 5 years. 

I posted about this earlier somewhere above.

From Tim Harford  in FT and on his R4 programme More or Less.

 

The wearing of facemasks IS a shovelful of shite, btw. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by antrin

[portmahomack saint]

1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

9 hours ago, portmahomack saint said:

I smell more shite..... why don't you pap your bum down here Susan next to me 
 

I thought it was only bazil and oaksoft who were still reading posts from Andy's current alias.

Usually only read the first line or 2, It's the same old claptrap everytime. everyone's entitled to their opinion on covid I get that but... C.T.F 

when you say alias Andy... are we talking maybe Shull ?? sounds like 

[Sue Denim]

4 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

I don't really like your social Darwinism but I agree with that there is so much contradictory evidence about the pandemic that anyone who claims to have all the answers is fooling themselves but as I've said pretty much all along we should err on the side of caution so I've supported the lockdown flawed as it has been, and I can point you to a Guardian article by • David Hunter is the Richard Doll professor of epidemiology and medicine at the University of Oxford; Neil Pearce is professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/29/britain-ditches-overseas-travel-coronavirus-spanish-covid-19

I've let my passport lapse, I'll never go abroad again. My main disappointment with the article is that the suggestion that we should bail out international airways - an unnecessary extravagance. It'll never happen not now that BJ has abandoned his "Fuck Business" persona! 

Again, the Guardian article is King Canute stuff.

Eliminating Covid entails eliminating influenza and the common cold.

Covid is now endemic. It can’t be eliminated. It’s here forever, just like the Spanish flu and the Hong Kong flu. 

Its just looney tunes to think you can eliminate it. 

As for social Darwinism, the fact is that we all die. People die of viruses when they are old and have serious illnesses that can or will kill them because their immune systems are shot.

Attempting to keep people alive for a few extra weeks in these conditions at the expense of taking years off the lives of others and wrecking the economy is madness.

The government’s own report believes that lockdown will cause 200,000 deaths in the U.K. while the latest Lancet report believes that literally hundreds of millions will die of starvation worldwide. 
 

Now that *really* is social Darwinism.

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

Hey @bazil85, the ONS published some new stats this morning looking at all cause mortality in Europe.

Now this really is the “bigger picture”. It’s simply looking at all deaths for all causes. This completely takes out any irregularities between different countries methods of counting Covid deaths. And it looks at the whole picture of how a country has handled the pandemic.

A death is a death. 

I’ve put together the table below just looking at Western European countries. Unfortunately, Germany does not participate in these stats. These figures are all cause mortality rates adjusted for population in 2020.

You quite clearly see that Scotland has fared the worst in Western Europe, despite locking down.

You can also see that Sweden, despite not locking down, is in the lower half of the table. It’s fared a bit better than its neighbour Denmark and slightly worse than Finland.

Its quite clear from this that lockdown has had no effect on how well a nation has fared. And it’s quite clear it’s been a disaster in Scotland. But hey, never mind all the dead, @TPAFKATS got to do a bit of virtue signalling on full pay.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

So that's Andy and oaksoft both taking the they would've died anyway approach.
Thin the herd and help the economy. Couple of sociopathic twats

Quite the opposite.

The policies that you have supported has led to more people dying than would have otherwise.

Thin the herd, leave people to die in pain, deny people basic healthcare services, trash the economy, make millions unemployed, starve millions to death and get a bit of virtue signalling in on full pay.

Sociopathic twat.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sue Denim

[bazil85]

24 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

Hey @bazil85, the ONS published some new stats this morning looking at all cause mortality in Europe.

Now this really is the “bigger picture”. It’s simply looking at all deaths for all causes. This completely takes out any irregularities between different countries methods of counting Covid deaths. And it looks at the whole picture of how a country has handled the pandemic.

A death is a death. 

I’ve put together the table below just looking at Western European countries. Unfortunately, Germany does not participate in these stats. These figures are all cause mortality rates adjusted for population in 2020.

You quite clearly see that Scotland has fared the worst in Western Europe, despite locking down.

You can also see that Sweden, despite not locking down, is in the lower half of the table. It’s fared a bit better than its neighbour Denmark and slightly worse than Finland.

Its quite clear from this that lockdown has had no effect on how well a nation has fared. And it’s quite clear it’s been a disaster in Scotland. But hey, never mind all the dead, @TPAFKATS got to do a bit of virtue signalling on full pay.

It's not a relevant bigger picture though is it? It looks at multiple different factors that will warp covid19 and lockdown related deaths. So basically you are concluding that all these varying factors can conclude on your isolated points on Covid19 and lockdown, talk about a complete lack of common sense.

You really struggle with this don't you? 

[bazil85]

26 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

Quite the opposite.

The policies that you have supported has led to more people dying than would have otherwise.

Thin the herd, leave people to die in pain, deny people basic healthcare services, trash the economy, make millions unemployed, starve millions to death and get a bit of virtue signalling in on full pay.

Sociopathic twat.

Not according to your own excessive death stats that you often share. It is staggering you can use one set of stats for one purpose and the same stats for the complete opposite purpose. 😅

[portmahomack saint]

20 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

Hey @bazil85, the ONS published some new stats this morning looking at all cause mortality in Europe.

Now this really is the “bigger picture”. It’s simply looking at all deaths for all causes. This completely takes out any irregularities between different countries methods of counting Covid deaths. And it looks at the whole picture of how a country has handled the pandemic.

A death is a death. 

I’ve put together the table below just looking at Western European countries. Unfortunately, Germany does not participate in these stats. These figures are all cause mortality rates adjusted for population in 2020.

You quite clearly see that Scotland has fared the worst in Western Europe, despite locking down.

You can also see that Sweden, despite not locking down, is in the lower half of the table. It’s fared a bit better than its neighbour Denmark and slightly worse than Finland.

Its quite clear from this that lockdown has had no effect on how well a nation has fared. And it’s quite clear it’s been a disaster in Scotland. But hey, never mind all the dead, @TPAFKATS got to do a bit of virtue signalling on full pay.

Well There you have it in black n white from your own hand,  Maybe now you will start to push the message,

Just as our Great leader and Guardian of Scotland Queen Nicola of Holyrood has been telling us years

Change your diet,  pie suppers and fried mars bars aren't good for you, eat healthy 5 a day etc etc 

Drink in moderation or I will introduce alcohol pricing ( to late for that one) 

Get out that car, and get aff the couch and laptop (that's you she meant) Get on your bike and start exercising a wee 20 min walk a day even

Patriots of Scotland have followed our Great leader in the battle against the Covid disease and we are winning the war,  the virus is in retreat 

[Sue Denim]

20 minutes ago, portmahomack saint said:

 

Patriots of Scotland have followed our Great leader in the battle against the Covid disease and we are winning the war,  the virus is in retreat 

 

It’s in retreat, all over Europe, including Sweden, where they didn’t lockdown.

Problem in the U.K. is that we followed policies that exacerbated the crisis and killed thousands of people. 
 

And I’m extremely fit and healthy btw. I don’t need anyone politician to tell me how to keep healthy. I take responsibility for my own health.

The only problems I have just now are that I can’t get any dental treatment because Nicola Sturgeon won’t allow it and I can’t go to the gym at least until September.

Nicola Sturgeon is hindering me trying to stay fit and healthy. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

Got to love this @bazil85 type stupidity from the BBC:

“For a full fortnight there have been no new daily deaths. A total of 4,201 fatalities have now been linked to Covid-19, including eight last week, according to NRS figures“

No new deaths AND 8 new deaths all in the same time period and all in the same paragraph.

You’d think that, unlike baz, a professional journalist would maybe look a bit deeper and explain what the numbers actually mean.....

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Bud the Baker]

27 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

1 hour ago, Sue Denim said:

Again, the Guardian article is King Canute stuff.

Eliminating Covid entails eliminating influenza and the common cold.

Covid is now endemic. It can’t be eliminated. It’s here forever, just like the Spanish flu and the Hong Kong flu. 

Its just looney tunes to think you can eliminate it. 

As for social Darwinism, the fact is that we all die. People die of viruses when they are old and have serious illnesses that can or will kill them because their immune systems are shot.

Attempting to keep people alive for a few extra weeks in these conditions at the expense of taking years off the lives of others and wrecking the economy is madness.

The government’s own report believes that lockdown will cause 200,000 deaths in the U.K. while the latest Lancet report believes that literally hundreds of millions will die of starvation worldwide. 

Now that *really* is social Darwinism.

 

Right well let's start with the misquote - the report said could!

Let's go onto the deliberate false comparison - the common cold comprises over 200 strains the fight against Covid-19 has not yet reached that stage.

***********************

Back to my original point - I quoted two eminent scientists who seem to think the virus can be eliminated at least in the UK until better treatments (some of which already exist compared to the first wave) and hopefully a vaccine can be developed - I'll trust them ahead of you.

Majority opinion is that lockdowns, track'n'trace & mask wearing reduce the spread of the Corona virus. Mistakes were made in Phase 1 of the pandemic, here and in many countries people have died needlessly - you're not the only one to realize that and your smugness is totally out of place. I still favour a cautious approach albeit one that is less oppressive to people with other illnesses that back in March-May - the aim if a second phase of the pandemic occurs must be to apply the lessons learned so far & help as many as possible.

*************************

Perhaps you're correct about the quality of life for people in care homes with dementia - I'm sure you have an, erm final, solution for this.

On a side note (& to use your tactics) people have been dying of starvation somewhere in the third world as long as I can remember Cap'n and this sympathy for them is the first time any of your personae has cared about it.

 

 

[Russian Saint]

Got to love this [mention=8643]bazil85[/mention] type stupidity from the BBC:
“For a full fortnight there have been no new daily deaths. A total of 4,201 fatalities have now been linked to Covid-19, including eight last week, according to NRS figures“
No new deaths AND 8 new deaths all in the same time period and all in the same paragraph.
You’d think that, unlike baz, a professional journalist would maybe look a bit deeper and explain what the numbers actually mean.....

Professional and Journalist are not words you’d often hear/read in the same sentence.

[portmahomack saint]

18 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

It’s in retreat, all over Europe, including Sweden, where they didn’t lockdown.

Problem in the U.K. is that we followed policies that exacerbated the crisis and killed thousands of people. 
 

And I’m extremely fit and healthy btw. I don’t need anyone politician to tell me how to keep healthy. I take responsibility for my own health.

The only problems I have just now are that I can’t get any dental treatment because Nicola Sturgeon won’t allow it and I can’t go to the gym at least until September.

Nicola Sturgeon is hindering me trying to stay fit and healthy. 

Point 1. A countries health as much as anything helps its ability to fight this virus, japan the perfect example.. have you seen the size of food portions they serve in America, your stats don't tell the full story.

 

Point 2  is utter nonsense,  I played football twice a week before lockdown, i've kept myself fit walking jogging DIY,  and have been playing tennis since the courts opened,, having more time too cook more healthy meals as the pubs were shut 

Blaming Sturgeon is just pathetic mate

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Usually only read the first line or 2, It's the same old claptrap everytime. everyone's entitled to their opinion on covid I get that but... C.T.F 
when you say alias Andy... are we talking maybe Shull ?? sounds like 

No, Andy isnt shull. He is a friend of the forum's owner though which may explain why he's been getting away with his cuntish behaviour for so many years.

[oaksoft]

6 hours ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Agreed. Some of the behaviour from scientists has been infuriating. They are so caught up in the drug of publicity, the recognition and being seen to be important that they are almost certainly unaware that politicians are using them as a shield.
The masks thing is a really odd one. People have been wearing masks for more years than most of us have been alive (mostly in south east Asia). If there was firm science that these were effective we would know about it by now. Not only that, we would know exactly how those masks would need to be manufactured, what materials were needed and how they needed to be fitted. We would have known this YEARS ago. I'm prepared to accept that masks might have some effect but in exchange for a serious inconvenience I expect a detailed scientific basis for this and I expect them to tell me exactly what type of mask is needed based on evidence. Apparently "science" is saying that a scarf or a jumper over the face is fine? A scarf or a jumper? Do me a fecking favour. This is just treating us like bloody idiots and for me, this is the red line.
IMO the masks thing is probably Sturgeon's way of digging herself out of an overly prolonged lockdown without it looking like she was over-cautious this past few months. I think she's been badgering scientists to say that masks have SOME effect where "some" means a very vague "well it won't do any harm and it MIGHT help". To stay in favour they will be prepared to back that statement.
There have been zero covid deaths for about a fortnight now and very few new cases. At some point we have to attempt a return to normality. What exactly is she waiting for? Negative deaths? Is she waiting for people to come back to life? There are people who are ACTUALLY ill from cancer and other illnesses, who urgently require medical treatment. We also have 3 million unemployed and a further 9 million on furlough, many of whom may be facing no work in 2 months time. Enough is enough.
Anyway, that's a fantastic rant for 4.40am. 

All fair enough although it's not just NS recommending face coverings and in Spain for example you have to wear them just out walking on the street. It seems the "science" is similar no matter whose delivering the info. Furlough is being phased out, I don't have an issue with that and I fully expect the small sectors not reopened to do so before it fully ends. I think the eggs are in the shielding and schools basket. Shielding ends this weekend and I expect once schools go back and there is no major issues 3-4 weeks down the line we will see Gyms, softplays etc reopening. Unfortunately I see masks and SD remaining until we either have the pandemic announced as ended or an effective vaccine is rolled out. If it's only masks and SD and all other aspects of business and the NHS ( have to say my ongoing treatments have been restarted for weeks) are restarted by say end September then that would be a decent outcome but even Boris is becoming increasingly concerned by the fabled 2nd wave (extension of self isolation period a good example just today) so we need to hope his likes are being overly pessimistic. Football return in some way by end October hopefully.

Glad to hear that your treatment has restarted.

I think you're probably right about the timescales on everything but I have to say that if we're still distancing and wearing masks by the end of September (and I think we probably will be) then that is going to be absolutely disastrous for the economy. I dread to think how many are going to be on the dole in October when furlough stops.

Just as an aside, we were in St Andrews last night and walked past 5 or 6 discarded masks which were just chucked on the ground at random points on two of the main central shopping streets. Some people are just scum. Of course our dog wanted to eat all of them......