The Referendum Thread

[beyond our ken]

He's already done that, ts, how many times has Kristalnacht been mentioned? That's why I don't engage with StuD anymore, I haven't lost the debate, just interest in anything he has to say because I know what he'll say before he writes it.

it's a wierd sensation, developing a thought and then wondering what is the most twisted,construed manner in which that thougt might be interpreted

or in otherwords, what will bludick do with this one

[FTOF]

it's a wierd sensation, developing a thought and then wondering what is the most twisted,construed manner in which that thougt might be interpreted

or in otherwords, what will bludick do with this one

Nail hit on head.

On the odd occasion that some dafty quotes either of them, it's become quite apparent that they're almost becoming the same bitter and twisted individual.

[BuddieinEK]

Scotland resents being dictated to by Westminster.

Scotland wants to separate from the UK as a result.

but

Scotland wants to stay part of the EU where Brussels will have far more sway over the new wee country than Westminster ever could have.

Scotland also wants to retain a currency managed by another country.

Which part is independent? Did I miss that?

[Stuart Dickson]

Sadly you didn't. There is nothing independent about the Yes campaign. Their whole plan for Scotland post referendum is completely dependent on the UK Treasury, Westminster, EU members, and NATO. Their White Paper even claims that we're going to be dependent on the rest of the UK not taking the huff and continuing to be our biggest export market.

I thought my lawyer was doing a good job but Salmond either utterly delusional or he's got one f**king amazing divorce lawyer

[FTOF]

More underhand behaviour from the government. Vladimir Putin would be proud of them.

THE Treasury was last night at the centre of a growing row over political bias, after admitting it had no record of when its most senior civil servant first advised the Chancellor against a currency union with an independent Scotland.

The inability of permanent secretary Sir Nicholas Macpherson to give a precise date is fuelling claims that Westminster's bombshell rejection of a currency union was cooked up to help the No campaign in the referendum.

The SNP said it was extraordinary that such a momentous decision had left no paper trail, and said it suggested the Treasury advice was little more than a dodgy campaign tactic.

In a formal memo dated February 11, Macpherson strongly advised George Osborne against a deal to share the pound on the basis that it would mirror the eurozone and prove unstable.

The confidential advice would normally have been kept secret for 30 years, but in a move Osborne himself described as "exceptional", it was made public just 48 hours later to help back up the Chancellor's rejection of a currency union on February 13.

Such high-level advice would typically crystallise after weeks or months of detailed discussion and research by Whitehall officials.

However, the Macpherson memo, which was seen as a huge boon to the No campaign, was later trashed by a leading independent economist as deeply flawed and based on loose assumptions.

Now, in response to a Freedom of Information request, the Treasury says it has no record of when Macpherson first warned Osborne against a currency union before the February 11 memo, raising further questions about its credibility.

It was reported last week that Westminster's refusal to let Scotland share the pound was taken on the advice of former Labour chancellor Alistair Darling, the chairman of the pro-Union Better Together campaign.

Until Osborne ruled out a deal on February 13, the official Treasury position was that such an arrangement was very unlikely.

Osborne's harder line, repeated by his Labour and LibDem counterparts, was seen as a body blow to the Yes campaign and to Alex Salmond, who had promised a formal deal after a Yes vote. The First Minister claimed the Unionist parties were bluffing, but all three insisted a currency union was impossible.

However, a newspaper report quoted an unnamed Coalition minister saying a formal currency union was "of course" possible, perhaps in return for the UK keeping Trident at Faslane. "Everything would change in the negotiations if there were a Yes vote," the minister reportedly said.

The same story contained the explosive claim that Darling and Downing Street's Scotland adviser, Andrew Dunlop, had shaped the Treasury hardline to boost Better Together's fortunes.

The Treasury confirmed in 2012 that Macpherson and Darling "meet socially from time to time".

UK ministers have repeatedly cited the three-page Macpherson memo as proof they are not bluffing over the currency, saying they could not go against such strong Treasury guidance.

But asked when Macpherson first warned against currency union before February 11, either in writing or verbally, the Treasury didn't know.

It said: "There is no record of the date when Sir Nicholas Macpherson, Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, first set out his advice to the Chancellor or other Treasury ministers regarding the currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK."

It went on: "To be helpful [we] can advise that the Permanent Secretary has for some time held the views expressed in his written advice of the 11 February.

"He recalls having expressed it verbally on several occasions prior to the formal written advice which was subsequently published."

Macpherson's memo was later dissected by Professor Leslie Young, of Cheung Kong School of Business in Beijing, who said it was flawed by loose analysis and inconsistent assumptions.

The SNP's Kenny Gibson said: "Westminster's currency bluff has completely crumbled. This FoI suggests the Treasury position was engineered externally, as there is no paper trail of how or when it was arrived at.

"Given the lack of documentation around Sir Nick's position, it is impossible to claim that ruling out sharing the pound was ever anything more than an ill-advised campaign tactic cooked up by Alistair Darling, as has been reported.

"Nothing the No campaign says on currency has a shred of credibility any more."

A Treasury spokesman dismissed the SNP's accusations as complete nonsense.

He said: "The Permanent Secretary and the Chancellor have a very close working relationship, as you would expect, and they talk about a range of issues all the time.

"This is just a distraction from the main issue, which is what currency would an independent Scotland use.

"That's what the Scottish Government should be spending their time and energies on, not trying to rake up a decision that has already been made."

[FTOF]

Scotland resents being dictated to by Westminster.

Scotland wants to separate from the UK as a result.

but

Scotland wants to stay part of the EU where Brussels will have far more sway over the new wee country than Westminster ever could have.

Scotland also wants to retain a currency managed by another country.

Which part is independent? Did I miss that?

I'm sure you'll have evidence of this.

If you haven't, why don't you phone up the BT campaign? I'm sure they've got a cooked up set of "facts" to fuel more unfounded mass hysteria.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Is there no end to the scaremongering?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26933998

An independent Scotland would destroy western civilisation as we know it!

Strange that its only being reported by bbc - guardian, dailymail, telegraph, sky news dont think its worthy of their web site.

[FTOF]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26933998

When will they learn?

The only word missing is "Armageddon", © SPL.

Reeks of desperation.

Still, another load of votes secured for the "Yes" campaign.

As for this statement;

He said he believed the American administration was worried about the possibility of Scottish independence.

Not that there's any actual evidence for this, but really, who gives a f**k whether the Americans are "worried"?

[FTOF]

Is there no end to the scaremongering?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26933998

An independent Scotland would destroy western civilisation as we know it!

Strange that its only being reported by bbc - guardian, dailymail, telegraph, sky news dont think its worthy of their web site.

Beat me to it!

[oaksoft]

You'd think that even hardened Unionists couldn't possibly support this laughable nonsense but on P&B they're giving it a good go.

Mind you they also think that the government minister who admitted we'd get a CU also showed up the SNP as liars on trident. I'm still trying to get my head around that one.

[Drew]

Dearie me. George Robertson wins this weeks award for the most preposterous intervention in the indepedence debate - and it is only Tuesday! I'm still cleaning my lunch off the computer screen after reading that.

He has to be YES campaign plant, yes?

[Maboza]

A tale of 2 speeches

One of the following speeches is talking of a positive future of Scotland as an outward looking small independent nation.

The other is talking in terms such as “forces of darkness” , the “cataclysmic” effect of independence, ‘international turmoil’ and “rivers of blood”.

Regardless of any of our views on independence – I think it’s important to recognise this somewhat sinister campaign tactic from Westminster which is now being deployed and question whether this is assisting the debate.

Speech 1

http://www.brookings...=united kingdom

Speech 2

http://news.scotland...7-2014-b45.aspx

[Vambo57]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26933998

When will they learn?

The only word missing is "Armageddon", © SPL.

Reeks of desperation.

Still, another load of votes secured for the "Yes" campaign.

As for this statement;

Not that there's any actual evidence for this, but really, who gives a f**k whether the Americans are "worried"?

I have a very strrange feeling the Yanks will be sending Bruce 'Bruno' Willis 'North' with a team of crack miners under the 'Color Of Night' on a suicide mission to break-up any ... aherm... solidarity behind Scotland's push for Independence.. They will hope to lay a sepository of misinformation and fear-coated doubt, deep into the recesses of Alex Salmond's erse and Scottish minds.

'The Expendables' will be aided and abetted 'In Country' of mission to go 'The Whole Nine Yards' by '12 Monkeys':

Alistair 'Last Man Standing' Darling,

Danny 'The Last Boy Scout' Alexander

Beavis & Butthead Cameron & Clegg,

Stairheed 'Death Becomes Her' Rammy,

George 'The Jackal' Osborne,

George 'Lucky Number Slevin' Robertson,

George 'Alpha Dog' Galloway,

David 'Look Whose Talking' Bowie,

Eddie 'Look Whose Talking Too' Izzard,

John 'Franky Goes to Hollywood' Barrowman

and

Sir Alex 'Grand Champion' Ferguson.

Their hope of loosening up the 'Die Hard' 'Fith Element' in Salmond's 'Unbreakable' posterior, will however find that Scots are 'Nobodys Fool' as they miscalculate and do not go 'The Whole Ten Yards' required, thus failing their mission. Their actions will only succeed in getting the 'Mercury Rising'. 'In the Cold Light of Day', 'The Verdict' on their 'Cop Out' sepository will not hold the Scots 'Hostage'. The result will be Independence Day for Scotland, celebrated by a 'Bonfire of The Vanities', with of course the 'Bandits' above, on top.

...or is my Sixth Sense just a piece of Pulp Fiction?

[RickMcD]

I have a very strrange feeling the Yanks will be sending Bruce 'Bruno' Willis 'North' with a team of crack miners under the 'Color Of Night' on a suicide mission to break-up any ... aherm... solidarity behind Scotland's push for Independence.. They will hope to lay a sepository of misinformation and fear-coated doubt, deep into the recesses of Alex Salmond's erse and Scottish minds.

'The Expendables' will be aided and abetted 'In Country' of mission to go 'The Whole Nine Yards' by '12 Monkeys':

Alistair 'Last Man Standing' Darling,

Danny 'The Last Boy Scout' Alexander

Beavis & Butthead Cameron & Clegg,

Stairheed 'Death Becomes Her' Rammy,

George 'The Jackal' Osborne,

George 'Lucky Number Slevin' Robertson,

George 'Alpha Dog' Galloway,

David 'Look Whose Talking' Bowie,

Eddie 'Look Whose Talking Too' Izzard,

John 'Franky Goes to Hollywood' Barrowman

and

Sir Alex 'Grand Champion' Ferguson.

Their hope of loosening up the 'Die Hard' 'Fith Element' in Salmond's 'Unbreakable' posterior, will however find that Scots are 'Nobodys Fool' as they miscalculate and do not go 'The Whole Ten Yards' required, thus failing their mission. Their actions will only succeed in getting the 'Mercury Rising'. 'In the Cold Light of Day', 'The Verdict' on their 'Cop Out' sepository will not hold the Scots 'Hostage'. The result will be Independence Day for Scotland, celebrated by a 'Bonfire of The Vanities', with of course the 'Bandits' above, on top.

...or is my Sixth Sense just a piece of Pulp Fiction?

Makes as much sense as the SNP white paper. At the minute the Yes brigade have nothing to say so they jump on stupid statements from idiot MP's. I suspect it's intentional. All sides have idiots on board. Still over five months to go. Haud me back!

[Stuart Dickson]

Makes as much sense as the SNP white paper. At the minute the Yes brigade have nothing to say so they jump on stupid statements from idiot MP's. I suspect it's intentional. All sides have idiots on board. Still over five months to go. Haud me back!

Robertson isn't an MP. He's the Former Secretary General of NATO. That's the third group the SNP are depending on in order to manage their Independent State.

I can see why the US and NATO would be worried. Salmond maintains he's going to tell NATO to stick their nuclear. Weapons up their arse and Faslane is a hugely significant naval base for the North Atlantic Alliance. Perhaps our Natsis can't see a problem with taking that attitude whilst reliant on NATO for protection but I'm sure more sane people can.

But you are 100% right Rick. All the Yes Campaign has right now is smears and threats. They aren't interested in leading a debate. It's pretty pathetic really.

[saintargyll]

Westminster are shitting it because they know they cant survive "on an even plane" without Scotland's money

When Scotland does eventually leave the "fat cats" will try to sustain their own personal wealth by ripping it off the poor

Revolt,Angst and civil war will march in the direction of London

why?.....because "fat cats" are greedy bastards and wont give up on their "rich" life styles....so cuts will be made elsewhere....and who will be the first to suffer?...the poor

and who will they blame throu propaganda methods....the Scots

[Vambo57]

Robertson isn't an MP. He's the Former Secretary General of NATO. That's the third group the SNP are depending on in order to manage their Independent State.

I can see why the US and NATO would be worried. Salmond maintains he's going to tell NATO to stick their nuclear. Weapons up their arse and Faslane is a hugely significant naval base for the North Atlantic Alliance. Perhaps our Natsis can't see a problem with taking that attitude whilst reliant on NATO for protection but I'm sure more sane people can.

But you are 100% right Rick. All the Yes Campaign has right now is smears and threats. They aren't interested in leading a debate. It's pretty pathetic really.

Oh FFS!!! Get the straighjacket oot! Seriously???!!!

[salmonbuddie]

Ignore him, Vambo, he's trolling and looking for exactly that kind of reaction to give his sad life some gratification.

[Bud Bundy]

Ignore him, Vambo, he's trolling and looking for exactly that kind of reaction to give his sad life some gratificati

Makes as much sense as the SNP white paper. At the minute the Yes brigade have nothing to say so they jump on stupid statements from idiot MP's. I suspect it's intentional. All sides have idiots on board. Still over five months to go. Haud me back!

This Democratic Decision has Fcuk all to do with You ? Hope this helps you Unionist Troll !

[Callum Gilhooley]

Loved this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-nato-stoltenberg-idUSBREA2R0X920140328

& this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-dear/norway-calls-the-world-to_b_2862919.html

So, lets get this straight.

The next Secretary general of NATO is from a small country with no nuclear weapons who , btw were founder members of NATO. .......... but OUR small nation who dont want Nuclear weapons would not be allowed to join NATO according to the NO fear campaign .

[smcc]

Robertson isn't an MP. He's the Former Secretary General of NATO. That's the third group the SNP are depending on in order to manage their Independent State.

S

I can see why the US and NATO would be worried. Salmond maintains he's going to tell NATO to stick their nuclear. Weapons up their arse and Faslane is a hugely significant naval base for the North Atlantic Alliance. Perhaps our Natsis can't see a problem with taking that attitude whilst reliant on NATO for protection but I'm sure more sane people can.

But you are 100% right Rick. All the Yes Campaign has right now is smears and threats. They aren't interested in leading a debate. It's pretty pathetic really.

I have you on ignore but unfortunately others keep quoting your strange opinions.

For your information, Salmond has never said that he wants NATO to do what you suggest with their nuclear weapons and, if he had done so, he would not have put a full stop in the middle of the sentence. What he and a large majority of the Scottish population have said is that they want nuclear weapons to be removed from Scotland. I don't think that the "Yes" camp have any intention of closing Faslane as a naval base.

I see that you are still insisting that we are living in the time of the Third Reich. I suggested some time ago that that was wearing rather thin but I am not at all surprised that you continue with it. On a large number of occasions when someone has refuted something you have said you have failed to reply.

[FTOF]

Oh FFS!!! Get the straighjacket oot! Seriously???!!!

Put him on ignore.

It equates to sending an attention seeking 5 year old to their bedroom.

[Stuart Dickson]

Westminster are shitting it because they know they cant survive "on an even plane" without Scotland's money

When Scotland does eventually leave the "fat cats" will try to sustain their own personal wealth by ripping it off the poor

Revolt,Angst and civil war will march in the direction of London

why?.....because "fat cats" are greedy bastards and wont give up on their "rich" life styles....so cuts will be made elsewhere....and who will be the first to suffer?...the poor

and who will they blame throu propaganda methods....the Scots

Oh FFS. The Scottish Government is paying those "fat cats" who own land in Scotland £millions every year so they can run those f**king stupid wee windmills. I don't know how anyone would get the idea that this will all stop if Scotland becomes independent

[2becks]

More detail on Lord Robertson's speech http://eveningharold.com/2014/04/08/scottish-independence-will-bring-voldemort-back-claims-lord-robertson/

[Stuart Dickson]

I have you on ignore but unfortunately others keep quoting your strange opinions.

For your information, Salmond has never said that he wants NATO to do what you suggest with their nuclear weapons and, if he had done so, he would not have put a full stop in the middle of the sentence. What he and a large majority of the Scottish population have said is that they want nuclear weapons to be removed from Scotland. I don't think that the "Yes" camp have any intention of closing Faslane as a naval base.

I see that you are still insisting that we are living in the time of the Third Reich. I suggested some time ago that that was wearing rather thin but I am not at all surprised that you continue with it. On a large number of occasions when someone has refuted something you have said you have failed to reply.

There would be a big difference to the Northern Atlantic Alliance defence strategy if nuclear subs were taken out of Faslane and it was replaced with the single conventional submarine that the proposed SNP defence budget could finance.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Stuart Dickson