Fans As Poor As The Team

[Seaside Nipper]

Absolutely, some of our fans are only happy when their angry.

Never forget the R SOLE in the Saints scarf no less, in front of me one day when all we got was "f**k off St Mirren" , the team hadn''t even finished running out of the tunnel for kick off

Walloper, and he certainly isnae alone..............................

[Danny]

Maybe the fans who are singing and having a laugh are not taking life too seriously and enjoying a day out with their pals?

Football is sport. It is entertainment. It is not life or death (you were wrong Mr Shankley ).

No - it's more important than that!

[Stuart Dickson]

Have to disagree with you on this one Stuart.

For me, a football "supporter" is not a "customer". The fans have a part to play, just as much as the players on the park, the managers, coaching staff, backroom staff, pie shop staff, ticket sellers, the board and everyone else involved with the club.

Part of the problem with Scottish football is that too many people go, expecting to be entertained as a "customer". IMO, that's not a valid reason to support St Mirren. If you want to be a customer, go to the pub or get a BT Sport subscription.

I support St Mirren because it’s my local team, I grew up supporting them. Many fans go to games home and away, week in week out – have a laugh with their mates but ultimately get behind the team as much as they can. Not everyone wants to go to football matches and sing, that’s fair enough – but considering yourself a customer is not the same as being a supporter.

As a “supporter”, we should encourage the team – not discourage them. Taking the game at Livingston as an example, the players applauded the fans at full time and looked like they enjoyed the support they received. Despite small numbers, we created a decent enough atmosphere throughout the game.

Compare that to one of our home games, where all you can hear is “F**KIN’ BOOO!” “F*CK SAKE CHEESY!”, “YER PISH ST MIRREN!”. It’s no wonder we get a reputation as the club that boo’s.

Football is a small world, players talk, just like fans do. We can’t expect to attract good quality players, when those players know that they’re going to be on the receiving end of abuse from their own fans. You might see it as your right as a “customer” to complain about the “product” on offer – but that’s a very capitalist view of a football match.

Now I’m not sure what you do for work – but let’s imagine you’re an office worker. Would you do a better job when people are being helpful and supportive, or when people are surrounding your desk, screaming abuse at you?

Our away record is far better than our home record. IMO, the reason for this is obvious. Our team don’t enjoy playing at home, they don’t feel supported. Away from home our support is always much more vocal – the singing tends to drown out the abuse.

Why don’t we try being positive and cheering the team on at home? You never know, that optimism could be the difference between a win and a loss…

I imagine if I was an office worker trying to do my job Doakes, I'd really appreciate it if there wasn't someone watching me, singing irrelevant songs all the time while I was trying to focus and concentrate.

However lets look at this in a different way. You and others suggest that singing songs encourages the players to play well and to win matches. If that was true would it not have the same effect on all 22 players, rather than just the eleven you are supporting? If it was true then why is it that football managers don't instruct their substitutes to sing songs along with the supporters? If it was true why aren't players whose livelihoods depend on the results of their matches the most vocal fans in the stadium? Why are they not leading the choir, especially when they get paid a bonus if the side wins? Why when watching on TV, lets say the World Cup Final, are we not seeing some of the worlds top players singing their hearts out in the dug out? Surely we can both agree that to a footballer being a part of a squad that has won the World Cup would be a momentous moment in their lives? Surely they'd do everything they believed would work to help their side win? Surely, if songs really did help, they'd be the loudest singers in the stadium?

Want another example? Have you watched the excellent Class of 92 programme on the BBC over the last two weeks? The Neville brothers, Ryan Giggs, Nick Butt and Paul Scholes have bought Salford, a football club that were than in the 7th tier of English football. You see pictures of them at matches. You see Gary Neville talk about how he loves to stand on a single block of concrete to watch his football there. You watch as Salford have a close run in to the end of the season with the club desperate to win promotion. Here are five players who have played infront of crowds of over 100,000 for one of the biggest clubs in the world, and one of the most successful sides the UK has ever produced. Yet with their personal reputation and their own money on the line you don't once see them singing songs. Why? Surely if it helped they'd be doing it?

I've done this topic loads of times in the past so I apologise for the repetition for those who have been on here for a long time, but I don't believe that any professional football player who is doing their job properly should have any concept of what the fans in the ground are doing. For example, have you ever got so into the book you were reading, the film you were watching, or the game you were playing that you couldn't hear your Mother or your wife talking to you? Where you were so in the zone that they had to really shout to get your attention? Yeah? Well shouldn't professional football players on a football field be "in the zone" showing that level of focus as a matter of course? Can they hear personal criticism at a football match? Ask a referee - many of them will tell you that they would hear the personal comments when they refereed matches in front of one man and a dog in the local juvenile leagues, but that as they worked the way up the ladder it would become more difficult to hear what people were saying just because it was harder to pick out a single voice.

By the way I'm not against football fans singing at matches. If it entertains them or provides them with a distraction during a match then fair enough. There has always been football fans who pay admission and then don't watch the football. There's always been an element within any football crowd who are craving attention rather than watching the game. There's always been the fan who spends the whole match turned towards their opposition fans goading and taunting them rather than watching the football. Just don't elevate the importance of what they do because beyond paying their admission clubs generally couldn't give a f**k what those fans are doing.

Oh and if you are worried about negative comments affecting the team can I tell you that these forums are the place where players are mostly affected. Back in 2000 I witnessed it first hand. Jose Quitongo had asked me to help him set up a new laptop that he'd just bought for himself. Steve McGarry had been bringing print outs of the old St Mirren guestbook to training matches and passing them around the players and Jose, like many others within the team were wanting to read the fans comments for themselves first hand. I tried to warn him, I tried to steer him away but he wasn't having it. He had an ego and he wanted to see what the Saints fans had been saying about his latest brilliant goalscoring performance........Lets just say the comments were less than complimentary. He, nor the woman that was his wife back then, had any concept from the crowd of just how unpopular he was amongst the fans, but the comments on the guestbook were scathing. I know he kept that £1500 laptop for four more weeks before giving it away, for free, to Chris Hillcoat, who was going through one of those periods in history when Hamilton couldn't afford to pay wages.

These days I'd hope players were a bit more internet savvy and that they'd know either to stay away from the forums, or to take what they read with a pinch of salt. Perhaps they can find a couple of contributors whose comments do have more weight whose opinion they'd genuinely be interested in. But certainly I'd believe that a football players confidence is far more likely to be damaged by what they read on here rather than whether or not fans at a match are singing songs or hurling abuse.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Maybe the fans who are singing and having a laugh are not taking life too seriously and enjoying a day out with their pals?

Football is sport. It is entertainment. It is not life or death (you were wrong Mr Shankley ).

I'd agree with you Sonny, and so long as the songs are kept appropriate and inoffensive then no harm is being done. I just hate this thing where customers are blamed for poor performances on the park. It's a load of shite. The customer is supporting the club by paying admission. The idea that a customer should then forget about the quality they are getting in return for their hard earned cash and not only not show displeasure, but instead be forced to sing and dance and look generally happy about it is utter nonsense.

[bluto]

I imagine ..... abuse.

Phew.

A long-winded post that wasn't (completely, just a wee bit) all about you.

[bigjerseybuddie]

Interesting debate on crowd influence; on the one hand the Italian goalkeeper Buffon, when questioned about the atmosphere in an upcoming match, replied" I've never seen a fan score a goal yet" the sentiment being that fans had no influence on what happens on the pitch. On the other hand I'm sure we have all heard Managers and players saying that when playing away at an intimidating venue if you can silence the crowd early you have a better chance of winning the game. A clear example of crowd influence on a game. Another slant is the crowd influence on officials. If the crowd don't influence the players there is a strong argument that the crowd does very often influence officials decisions.

Most fans would like to believe that their vocal support can influence what's happening. It would take a very unusual person indeed to close out all noise especially at big games. I suppose none of us will really know. I certainly won't because 1) I'm too old and 2) I was/ am pish at football

[pozbaird]

The atmosphere is shite because, a few standout results aside, the team have been shite at home season after season. Going to home games feels like a chore. I can only speak for myself obviously, but I rack up through habit, a sense of duty, and, despite our utter ineptitude, a desire not to walk away and desert them.

I don't enjoy the experience any more. I have never expected us, in all my years watching us, to blow opponents away by four or five goals, or to go on long runs where our stats' column read something like W-W-W-D-W-L-D-W.... but I always used to get the Saturday morning 'butterflies in the tummy' feeling. It was matchday, it was Love Street, it was us against them, it was the good POSSIBILITY of us winning, blowing four or five past the hapless visitor, and at the very least, make it difficult for the opponent and have a go. I now wake up on a Saturday and think 'ach, another home game, shit.' Feeling this way never sees me verbally attack our players or rant and rave in the stand, I just feel completely apathetic and slink off at F/T pondering if I should get a Chinese or Indian in for tea on the way home. Back in the day it used to HURT.

This St Mirren side, and recent St Mirren sides are soft as shite. We make it easy for opponents. We go 2-up at home and lose 3-2. We don't hold onto leads, we don't score enough, and we leak like a wet paper bag at the back. Our home league record is abysmal and racking up for the Dinkydome these days, the 'matchday experience' mostly involves half a stand open, one toilet and one pie stand, a completely empty away end, hardly a singing section to speak of, and inevitably, an 'L' or praise the Lord, a 'D' in the home stats' column.

Blame the fans? SG has my ST money anyway. Blame Canada. Blame Cliff Richard. I blame the utter shite being served up at 99% of our home league games.

Edited November 6, 2015 by pozbaird

[div]

The atmosphere is shite because, a few standout results aside, the team have been shite at home season after season. Going to home games feels like a chore. I can only speak for myself obviously, but I rack up through habit, a sense of duty, and, despite our utter ineptitude, a desire not to walk away and desert them.

I don't enjoy the experience any more. I have never expected us, in all my years watching us, to blow opponents away by four or five goals, or to go on long runs where our stats' column read something like W-W-W-D-W-L-D-W.... but I always used to get the Saturday morning 'butterflies in the tummy' feeling. It was matchday, it was Love Street, it was us against them, it was the good POSSIBILITY of us winning, blowing four or five past the hapless visitor, and at the very least, make it difficult for the opponent and have a go. I now wake up on a Saturday and think 'ach, another home game, shit.' Feeling this way never sees me verbally attack our players or rant and rave in the stand, I just feel completely apathetic and slink off at F/T pondering if I should get a Chinese or Indian in for tea on the way home. Back in the day it used to HURT.

This St Mirren side, and recent St Mirren sides are soft as shite. We make it easy for opponents. We go 2-up at home and lose 3-2. We don't hold onto leads, we don't score enough, our home league record is abysmal and racking up for the Dinkydome 'matchday experience' mostly involves half the stand open, one toilet and one pie stand, a completely empty away end, hardly a singing section to speak of, and inevitably, an 'L' or praise the Lord, a 'D' in the home stats column.

Blame the fans? SG has my ST money anyway. Blame Canada.

Yeah I think this pretty much sums it up for me too.

I haven't enjoyed going to our home games ever since we went on the wee run just around the time Isma signed, we knocked Celtic out the League Cup, then knocked St.Johnstone out the Scottish and we were playing some great stuff. Looking back we had a really tremendous squad of players then with Newton, Dummett, McGinn, Samson, McGowan, Isma, Carey, Thommo, Teale, Goodwin all playing really well.

Players who would stroll in to our team now like Imrie and McLean couldn't even get a game for us back then. If we had sorted out the central defensive issue we had then we would have been good shouts for a top six place with that squad IMO. We didn't, the season came and went and the talented squad melted away into the mess we had the following season and then the utter disaster of Tommy Craig.

The cup win came two months later, and from then until now it's been pretty much a large bag of shite at home.

[scottd]

Yeah I think this pretty much sums it up for me too.

I haven't enjoyed going to our home games ever since we went on the wee run just around the time Isma signed, we knocked Celtic out the League Cup, then knocked St.Johnstone out the Scottish and we were playing some great stuff. Looking back we had a really tremendous squad of players then with Newton, Dummett, McGinn, Samson, McGowan, Isma, Carey, Thommo, Teale, Goodwin all playing really well.

Players who would stroll in to our team now like Imrie and McLean couldn't even get a game for us back then. If we had sorted out the central defensive issue we had then we would have been good shouts for a top six place with that squad IMO. We didn't, the season came and went and the talented squad melted away into the mess we had the following season and then the utter disaster of Tommy Craig.

The cup win came two months later, and from then until now it's been pretty much a large bag of shite at home.

The squad that won the cup could only finish 11th and such was our poor form post cup win that Dundee even got a chance to put the frightners on us near the seasons end.

The following season was far from shite at home as we actually managed more wins than losses at home, the only time that has happened since the move. Things are bad right now but they weren't necessarily as good in the past as we may choose to remember.

[thomsons dropped it]

Chicken & Egg at home.

The fans will respond and react to what they see happening on the pitch. I've witnessed noise in the West Stand that was deafening when we beat Celtic 4-0, knocked them out the Scottish Cup and beat Rangers on Xmas Eve. The stadium is often criticised for causing the poor atmosphere but the reality is that it's what's happening on the park that is the root cause.

The fans at home CAN be unreasonable though. There are individuals who we all hear every home game who go out their way to be negative and who simply can't wait to berate our own team. That has been true for all the years I've been supporting Saints, and I guess it's most likely true of every club in the land.

I've never really understood it, but i actually think some of our fans ENJOY being negative. I guess it's their outlet after a shite week at work or whatever.

Apparently still alive and Haunting this forum.......

[munoz]

I wouldn't believe that headline , it's in the daily express fur fox sake !

He's got a new album out for Xmas .

[pozbaird]

I wouldn't believe that headline , it's in the daily express fur fox sake !

He's got a new album out for Xmas .

I don't believe that headline either, but I do have a suspicious mind.

[bluto]

Only thing wrong with poz's diatribe is that it's not that I don't desire (on occasion) to walk away/desert St Mirren - my dna precludes that. Sadly.

Munoz/Thomson...?

If you're getting that trashy paper delivered to you...?

Return to Sender.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bluto

[proudtobeabuddy]

Give us some goals and look like you're up for a fight and the fans will get behind the team...it's that simple!

[Ayrshire Saints]

I imagine if I was an office worker trying to do my job Doakes, I'd really appreciate it if there wasn't someone watching me, singing irrelevant songs all the time while I was trying to focus and concentrate.

However lets look at this in a different way. You and others suggest that singing songs encourages the players to play well and to win matches. If that was true would it not have the same effect on all 22 players, rather than just the eleven you are supporting? If it was true then why is it that football managers don't instruct their substitutes to sing songs along with the supporters? If it was true why aren't players whose livelihoods depend on the results of their matches the most vocal fans in the stadium? Why are they not leading the choir, especially when they get paid a bonus if the side wins? Why when watching on TV, lets say the World Cup Final, are we not seeing some of the worlds top players singing their hearts out in the dug out? Surely we can both agree that to a footballer being a part of a squad that has won the World Cup would be a momentous moment in their lives? Surely they'd do everything they believed would work to help their side win? Surely, if songs really did help, they'd be the loudest singers in the stadium?

Want another example? Have you watched the excellent Class of 92 programme on the BBC over the last two weeks? The Neville brothers, Ryan Giggs, Nick Butt and Paul Scholes have bought Salford, a football club that were than in the 7th tier of English football. You see pictures of them at matches. You see Gary Neville talk about how he loves to stand on a single block of concrete to watch his football there. You watch as Salford have a close run in to the end of the season with the club desperate to win promotion. Here are five players who have played infront of crowds of over 100,000 for one of the biggest clubs in the world, and one of the most successful sides the UK has ever produced. Yet with their personal reputation and their own money on the line you don't once see them singing songs. Why? Surely if it helped they'd be doing it?

I've done this topic loads of times in the past so I apologise for the repetition for those who have been on here for a long time, but I don't believe that any professional football player who is doing their job properly should have any concept of what the fans in the ground are doing. For example, have you ever got so into the book you were reading, the film you were watching, or the game you were playing that you couldn't hear your Mother or your wife talking to you? Where you were so in the zone that they had to really shout to get your attention? Yeah? Well shouldn't professional football players on a football field be "in the zone" showing that level of focus as a matter of course? Can they hear personal criticism at a football match? Ask a referee - many of them will tell you that they would hear the personal comments when they refereed matches in front of one man and a dog in the local juvenile leagues, but that as they worked the way up the ladder it would become more difficult to hear what people were saying just because it was harder to pick out a single voice.

By the way I'm not against football fans singing at matches. If it entertains them or provides them with a distraction during a match then fair enough. There has always been football fans who pay admission and then don't watch the football. There's always been an element within any football crowd who are craving attention rather than watching the game. There's always been the fan who spends the whole match turned towards their opposition fans goading and taunting them rather than watching the football. Just don't elevate the importance of what they do because beyond paying their admission clubs generally couldn't give a f**k what those fans are doing.

Oh and if you are worried about negative comments affecting the team can I tell you that these forums are the place where players are mostly affected. Back in 2000 I witnessed it first hand. Jose Quitongo had asked me to help him set up a new laptop that he'd just bought for himself. Steve McGarry had been bringing print outs of the old St Mirren guestbook to training matches and passing them around the players and Jose, like many others within the team were wanting to read the fans comments for themselves first hand. I tried to warn him, I tried to steer him away but he wasn't having it. He had an ego and he wanted to see what the Saints fans had been saying about his latest brilliant goalscoring performance........Lets just say the comments were less than complimentary. He, nor the woman that was his wife back then, had any concept from the crowd of just how unpopular he was amongst the fans, but the comments on the guestbook were scathing. I know he kept that £1500 laptop for four more weeks before giving it away, for free, to Chris Hillcoat, who was going through one of those periods in history when Hamilton couldn't afford to pay wages.

These days I'd hope players were a bit more internet savvy and that they'd know either to stay away from the forums, or to take what they read with a pinch of salt. Perhaps they can find a couple of contributors whose comments do have more weight whose opinion they'd genuinely be interested in. But certainly I'd believe that a football players confidence is far more likely to be damaged by what they read on here rather than whether or not fans at a match are singing songs or hurling abuse.

Ive seen hundreds of players and managers encouraging a crowd to make more noise but I've never once seen a player or manager try to wheesht a crowd in full voice. Any players I know or have known all loved it going to grounds where the fans created an atmosphere i.e. singing. I don't know a single fan who doesn't love a performance that gets the passion going and thus the crowd into full voice. Its what the vast majority of us go on a Saturday praying for. All the great days watching Saints have been sing yourself hoarse days for me and all my Saints supporting mates.

[Stuart Dickson]

Ive seen hundreds of players and managers encouraging a crowd to make more noise but I've never once seen a player or manager try to wheesht a crowd in full voice. Any players I know or have known all loved it going to grounds where the fans created an atmosphere i.e. singing. I don't know a single fan who doesn't love a performance that gets the passion going and thus the crowd into full voice. Its what the vast majority of us go on a Saturday praying for. All the great days watching Saints have been sing yourself hoarse days for me and all my Saints supporting mates.

Really? A quick search on Google throws up millions, yes millions of images just like this.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Really? A quick search on Google throws up millions, yes millions of images just like this.

You know as well as everyone else that gesture TO OPPOSITION FANS after a player has scored is not what I meant. The discussion was around singing to encourage your own team. Edited November 7, 2015 by Ayrshire Saints

[Lethal89]

John Sutton did it at Love St against Rangers, his headed goal silenced the cry was no surrender. Total classic

[Stuart Dickson]

John Sutton did it at Love St against Rangers, his headed goal silenced the cry was no surrender. Total classic

St Mirren players regularly did it to the St Mirren fans in the 99/00 season. You've got to wonder if Ayrshire Saint has ever watched a match with his eyes open....

[Ayrshire Saints]

St Mirren players regularly did it to the St Mirren fans in the 99/00 season. You've got to wonder if Ayrshire Saint has ever watched a match with his eyes open....

Let me get this straight. You are claiming that Saints players told Saints fans to stop singing in encouragement. Please name the specific game and players as in those days I was a home and away regular. I have never ever seen any Saints player try to quieten what back then would have been the North Bank. I'm all ears on this one and please don't try to highlight some attempt at response to fan criticism as that is not what this thread is about.

[Stu]

Let me get this straight. You are claiming that Saints players told Saints fans to stop singing in encouragement. Please name the specific game and players as in those days I was a home and away regular. I have never ever seen any Saints player try to quieten what back then would have been the North Bank. I'm all ears on this one and please don't try to highlight some attempt at response to fan criticism as that is not what this thread is about.

He's having a nightmare all over the place. The shoosh stuff was in 05/06 and was nothing to do with the fans it was some inside joke, I think maybe to do with a Proclaimers song.

I remember Imrie doing the finger to the mouth stuff a few times and perhaps Jim Hamilton as a response to criticism.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Stu

[Ayrshire Saints]

He's having a nightmare all over the place. The shoosh stuff was in 05/06 and was nothing to do with the fans it was some inside joke, I think maybe to do with a Proclaimers song.

I remember Imrie doing the finger to the mouth stuff a few times and perhaps Jim Hamilton as a response to criticism.

No doubt the Dicks massive ego will kick in and he will either invent something or totally twist an attempt at silencing criticism yet again as an example of players trying to tell their own fans to curb their enthusiasm. He just cannot be wrong remember.

[nosferatu]

Stuart raises some good points. Its an interesting topic.

Shame that the usual suspects lower themselves to the usual abuse.

Back on topic. Questions to Stuart...

Why is it that there is a home team advantage?

I know what your answer will be... so, to before you do... does the home crowd not play a part in that?

And remember... refereeing decisions can play a big part... and crowds can certainly influence that... as every club in Scotland knows from games against Celtic, Rangers (now in liquidation) and the brand new club that is now playing out of Ibrox.

I remember reading a good article about how Rosenberg played to exactly the same tactics - home or away - and regardless of the opposition - in their heyday.

And it got them some outstanding results away from home...

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart raises some good points. Its an interesting topic.

Shame that the usual suspects lower themselves to the usual abuse.

Back on topic. Questions to Stuart...

Why is it that there is a home team advantage?

I know what your answer will be... so, to before you do... does the home crowd not play a part in that?

And remember... refereeing decisions can play a big part... and crowds can certainly influence that... as every club in Scotland knows from games against Celtic, Rangers (now in liquidation) and the brand new club that is now playing out of Ibrox.

I remember reading a good article about how Rosenberg played to exactly the same tactics - home or away - and regardless of the opposition - in their heyday.

And it got them some outstanding results away from home...

Routine, familiarity and psychology are the obvious answers to the home advantage question. We're all the same, it applies to each one of us at work, never mind footballers. Do you feel on top of your game if you've had to get up 2 hours earlier to travel to another office? Do you feel on top of your game if you've had to spend the night in a hotel bed rather than your own one at home? Do you feel on top of your game when you are working in another office and no-one has told you what the wifi password is. or when you have to ask where the toilet is?

Footballers are usually no different although you can add in to the normal mundane stuff that knocks them off their game, things like not being able to eat their usual pre match dinner cause the restaurant the club stopped off at en-route to the game doesn't have it on the menu, or having their superstitions knocked out by not being able to use their usual peg or locker. I think it's got very little to do with the crowd.

As for referees and match officials I think the crowd may play a small part, but I think it's much less significant than most people think. For example it's often claimed that Rangers and Celtic get far more decisions going their way than any other club in Scotland. That might well be true but I'd suggest that the reason for that is that their players are generally of a better standard than their opponents, that they are far more likely to spend time in possession therefore being tackled against, and they are far more likely to be attacking the opponents goal than they are to be defending deep and tackling in and around their own penalty box. Where the crowd may play a small part is in their reaction to something happening on the pitch, refs have told me that they can often judge a decision by the reaction of people around it, so there would be scope for a minor influence in there. However I'd venture the kind of noise that would influence the decision would be more likely to be 4,000 people screaming "penalty" or roaring for a foul. It certainly wouldn't be a group of fans banging on a drum singing songs all afternoon that have little context to the game being played at all.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Stuart Dickson

[nosferatu]

Stuart, where your point about Rangers spending more time in the opposition box begins to fall apart is when you look at Rangers 1979-1986.

Despite only being the 4th most successful league side in Scotland during this period, and averaging only 4 points per season more than St. Mirren...

They managed to win more major trophies than St.Mirren had managed in our entire history.

They managed to reach more cup finals than Dundee United and Aberdeen.

Scottish referees are massively influenced by the Old Firm crowds.

Refereeing decisions massively distort the outcome of games... And the crowd okays a big part in that.