10000hours Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Similarly does this mean that membership of the CIC cannot confer discounts to Individual Members regarding club facilities & goods, ie car park, programs, hospitality etc which has been proposed in the big thread? No it cannot. However the Board of the Club, which is of course controlled by the members of the CIC could decide to do this. However it would all need to be done transparently (which is what the CIC is all about) and as Directors of the Club they would have to legally act in the best interests of the club. It is an important disctinction but gives clarity and stability to the relationship between the CIC and the Club. However we can see very justifiable reasons why the club would chose to give such discount, although you always have to remember that the club can only spend on the pitch what it earns, so we think you would have to demonstrate that any discount to any group CIC or otherwise would bring in more revenue either in the short or long term. As a current example the club makes some free tickets avaliable to local schools and boys clubs in the, good, belief that this will biuld more fans of the future that will one day pay for their tickets., it would we think be the same sort of decision making process. 10000hours CIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry if this has been asked before but what would happen to the 52% shares if the CIC did get into financial trouble after a few years? Would the shares be put up for sale? If there was no buyer would St Mirren effectively be owned and controlled by a bank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry if this has been asked before but what would happen to the 52% shares if the CIC did get into financial trouble after a few years? Would the shares be put up for sale? If there was no buyer would St Mirren effectively be owned and controlled by a bank? To be honest it depends on the sort of financial trouble, but it also depend on the lender, it is not a simple question or a simple answer It is vital to understand that none of those organisations who are going through the due diligence process with regards to the funding of the CIC are banks. The funders exist to deal with CIC's and the due digilence required is far greater that any normal bank arrangement becuase they are after more than just the money paid back they are also after what is termed SROI (social return on investment) at that is where the CIC community members come in. We will speak a more on this, this evening and hopefully you will agree with us that any remote risk involved are preferable to the alternative "one man" ownership senario. 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 No it cannot. However the Board of the Club, which is of course controlled by the members of the CIC could decide to do this. However it would all need to be done transparently (which is what the CIC is all about) and as Directors of the Club they would have to legally act in the best interests of the club. It is an important disctinction but gives clarity and stability to the relationship between the CIC and the Club. However we can see very justifiable reasons why the club would chose to give such discount, although you always have to remember that the club can only spend on the pitch what it earns, so we think you would have to demonstrate that any discount to any group CIC or otherwise would bring in more revenue either in the short or long term. As a current example the club makes some free tickets avaliable to local schools and boys clubs in the, good, belief that this will biuld more fans of the future that will one day pay for their tickets., it would we think be the same sort of decision making process. 10000hours CIC Already! Would granting a discount be at the discretion of the CIC or would it have to be approved by The Regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLF Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 The Current board do not work full time, and although some are now recently retired it does not take up all their working day, although there is no doubt that the time and effort that is put in by all is significant, someone who is in a full time job will not be excluded form being on the board Thanks for the response. Thats fair enough - but I suspect someone in a full-time position would struggle to make available the necessary time to be chairman of a SPL club - I am not saying this is wrong or unfair - just that it is something to be considered. Are you able to answer the other point regarding the "safety net" group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I believe there are as many as a dozen different funding routes. Some of which can only kick in after the deal is completed because of legal restrictions on how they spend their loot. TTH will be able to tell you if there are any deal breakers amongst those dozen (or if I am talking bollocks). Don't know but I didn't want to ignore part of your question. I believe at least three of the corporate members who have committed currently have nothing to do with the club at any level at all. No idea about how many of the sellers are putting in as corporate members. Thanks for your answers div - an answer from the 10000hours poster would be nice now - unless that's you in disguise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Thanks for your answers div - an answer from the 10000hours poster would be nice now - unless that's you in disguise. Nope, I am just the web monkey in all of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapsalmon Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 At the meeting there was a brief mention of community member getting tickets for matches. Is this part of the community members deal? Also, does the £500 entitle a group to use the club facilities at no further cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry if this has been covered and I've missed it, but if someone could help me clarify this? In one statement we have... So the playing budget could be increased by 20% with these sort of increases. And they are all acheivable. 4000 additional transactions in the club (like new club shop, coffee shop at the ground, more strip sales) increases the budget by 4.5%. 500 additional people turning up every second week to watch the games would increase the playing budget by 8%. 52 additional events a year, one a week, just in the current suite, just using bar revenue, could increase the player budget by 7.5% ....and a bit later we have The membership fees and the extra revenue generated by the CIC will be used to repay the debt. The operations of the club won't be affected. Which is it? I assume priority will be given to servicing the debt and any extra be transferred to the football side? Doesn't this mean that the scenario of increasing the player budget by 20% pretty unlikely? Or ... am I getting mixed up and it's only by increasing things directly linked to the footballing side that we can increase the player budget (strips, club shop etc,) and extra revenue from 'community facilities' will repay the debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 At the meeting there was a brief mention of community member getting tickets for matches. Is this part of the community members deal? Also, does the £500 entitle a group to use the club facilities at no further cost? I do recall the ticket thing, I believe it's a one off to spark interest in people returning. I'm sure RA stated that all members would still pay for facilities and things like ad boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maboza Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry if this has been covered and I've missed it, but if someone could help me clarify this? In one statement we have... ....and a bit later we have Which is it? I assume priority will be given to servicing the debt and any extra be transferred to the football side? Doesn't this mean that the scenario of increasing the player budget by 20% pretty unlikely? Or ... am I getting mixed up and it's only by increasing things directly linked to the footballing side that we can increase the player budget (strips, club shop etc,) and extra revenue from 'community facilities' will repay the debt? Yeah that bit confused me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry if this has been covered and I've missed it, but if someone could help me clarify this? In one statement we have... ....and a bit later we have Which is it? I assume priority will be given to servicing the debt and any extra be transferred to the football side? Doesn't this mean that the scenario of increasing the player budget by 20% pretty unlikely? Or ... am I getting mixed up and it's only by increasing things directly linked to the footballing side that we can increase the player budget (strips, club shop etc,) and extra revenue from 'community facilities' will repay the debt? I think a key definition here is that it states revenue generated by the CIC. The 20% is revenue generated by the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 At the meeting there was a brief mention of community member getting tickets for matches. Is this part of the community members deal? Also, does the £500 entitle a group to use the club facilities at no further cost? Not sure about the tickets for matches; however currently free tickets are provided for community groups so not sure this would be a new initiative. My understanding after Guinness: The £500 membership comes with a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between the Community Member and the CIC. This will be something along the lines of hiring club facilities at a cost throughout the year - the MOUs appear to be negotiated depending on the nature of the org and their desired relationship with the club. It will be a simbiotic relationship that raises funds for us. Just noticed that it is difficult to type about the various members and their interaction as the community members will effectively be "us" to. "Us" will be contributing to the benefit of "us". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 My current question for the CIC would be By recruiting corporate members (and to a certain extent community members) are the not competing with the club for the same pot of money? In other words, would the businesses that sign up for the CIC not have used the money to directly sponsor the club anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 It's been mentioned elsewhere but how much is it costing for 10000hours to take control of the club and who is paying for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 It's been mentioned elsewhere but how much is it costing for 10000hours to take control of the club and who is paying for this? £2m. The money will come from several different funders, many of whom exist solely for the purpose of funding social enterprises and converting privately owned assets into community ownership. Of the £2m around £800k will be in the form of one off non-repayable grants. The other £1.2m comes in the form of loans. These are repayable at interest rates varying from 0% to 8% and they are repayable on terms between 3 and 10 years. Some of that £1.2m could be further reduced if the club can deliver tangible returns on social investment to those funders. The identity of the funders cannot be disclosed right now because of confidentiality clauses but that information will be made fully available before the CIC itself actually begins to trade. The whole CIC will be fully transparent with nothing hidden. I think that is the jist of what was said last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 £2m. My presumption is that this is the money going to the BoD for their 52% holding in the club. What I meant was about the additional costs of setting up the CIC and all paraphenalia that goes along with the takeover - who will bear these costs (are they significant?) the club or the CIC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garzo Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 A few questions if I am allowed... Q: What is the criteria for the CIC failing, (Tipping point?) Q: If at any time the CIC fails what is the exposure to St Mirren Football Club (do the club gaurantee any aspect of the debt?) Q: Can the CIC shares be sold at anytime and if yes can they be broken up into batches? Q: Will any individual person or organisation benefit from a sell on of shares? Q: Profit distribution - who gets what? Q: Football - transfer window - player is required - where do funds (extra) come from to secure the player? Q: Transition period - is there any detrimental budget effect to the football club? Q: Will any debt be reduced the more the club is involved in community initiatives? Q: Does the business plan have a best case projection of debt repayment? Q: Will members get a badge? (lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 A few questions if I am allowed... Q: What is the criteria for the CIC failing, (Tipping point?) A: The CIC like any business has to fullfill its financial obligations, in this case to its Social investment funders. there is no specific "tipping point" as such. If for some reason the CIC does run into financial difficulty then like any business we have to negotiate with any creditors to agree a way forward. However the funders are not Banks, they specifically fund these kind of social enterpriise, CIC, community ownership projects, and they have heavily scrutiszed the numbers and completed much of the due diligence required and they would not be at such an advanced stage in this process if they did not belive in the long term stabilty of the project. Q: If at any time the CIC fails what is the exposure to St Mirren Football Club (do the club gaurantee any aspect of the debt?) A: No the Club is not garanteeing any of the debt Q: Can the CIC shares be sold at anytime and if yes can they be broken up into batches? A: in theory yes, however there are very strict government rules about this, which answer your next two questions only. The Asset lock nature of a CIC means the the money used by any external organisation or person to by shares in the CIC has to be retained by the CIC for its purposes and cannot be passed out in the form of dividends. (as a techical aside as you are asking some good questions and sound like you might look at the approporate legislation CIC's can technically pay dividends which are government controlled, but they can also consitute not to like 10000hours has) Q: Will any individual person or organisation benefit from a sell on of shares? A: as above Q: Profit distribution - who gets what? A: As above Q: Football - transfer window - player is required - where do funds (extra) come from to secure the player? A: same place as they always have, from the clubs resourses, which we believe will be increased because of the ownership structure and greater use of the facility. From the Clubs perspectove the CIC only exists as a vehicle to allow the fans to control the desitiny of the club. Q: Transition period - is there any detrimental budget effect to the football club? A: No. In fact the benefits are already showing. The club has already had the benefit of over a dozen events that woiuld not have taken place had the CIC not brought the organisations or individuals around the building to talk to them about the CIC Q: Will any debt be reduced the more the club is involved in community initiatives? A: Yes this is possible Q: Does the business plan have a best case projection of debt repayment? A: All the debt will be repaid over a Max of 10 years, some will be repaid much sooner, and non of the debt has any early redemption clauses. So if the CIC is uber successful we can pay all the debt of early without any penalty Q: Will members get a badge? (lol) A: Dont see why not........anyone on here want to design it....where is pozbaird when you need him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 My presumption is that this is the money going to the BoD for their 52% holding in the club. What I meant was about the additional costs of setting up the CIC and all paraphenalia that goes along with the takeover - who will bear these costs (are they significant?) the club or the CIC? The legal expenses of the CIC set up and take over are to the account of the individuals involved and will not come from either the club or the CIC. They are our contribution to the process and are significant but hopefully you will take it as a sign the we has "some skin in the game" The CIC will indeed have running costs like any organisation, e.g statutory accounts etc etc and these just like any other club or committe will come out of the earnings of the CIC. It is a small number (dont have it to hand right now) the important thing is that non of the boardmembers will be being paid, which is what would really ramp up the costs if it was to happen. 10000hours CIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The legal expenses of the CIC set up and take over are to the account of the individuals involved and will not come from either the club or the CIC. They are our contribution to the process and are significant but hopefully you will take it as a sign the we has "some skin in the game" 10000hours CIC Fair play to you............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 A: The CIC like any business has to fullfill its financial obligations, in this case to its Social investment funders. there is no specific "tipping point" as such. If for some reason the CIC does run into financial difficulty then like any business we have to negotiate with any creditors to agree a way forward. However the funders are not Banks, they specifically fund these kind of social enterpriise, CIC, community ownership projects, and they have heavily scrutiszed the numbers and completed much of the due diligence required and they would not be at such an advanced stage in this process if they did not belive in the long term stabilty of the project. A: No the Club is not garanteeing any of the debt A: in theory yes, however there are very strict government rules about this, which answer your next two questions only. The Asset lock nature of a CIC means the the money used by any external organisation or person to by shares in the CIC has to be retained by the CIC for its purposes and cannot be passed out in the form of dividends. (as a techical aside as you are asking some good questions and sound like you might look at the approporate legislation CIC's can technically pay dividends which are government controlled, but they can also consitute not to like 10000hours has) A: as above A: As above A: same place as they always have, from the clubs resourses, which we believe will be increased because of the ownership structure and greater use of the facility. From the Clubs perspectove the CIC only exists as a vehicle to allow the fans to control the desitiny of the club. A: No. In fact the benefits are already showing. The club has already had the benefit of over a dozen events that woiuld not have taken place had the CIC not brought the organisations or individuals around the building to talk to them about the CIC A: Yes this is possible A: All the debt will be repaid over a Max of 10 years, some will be repaid much sooner, and non of the debt has any early redemption clauses. So if the CIC is uber successful we can pay all the debt of early without any penalty A: Dont see why not........anyone on here want to design it....where is pozbaird when you need him! Hey, I'm here. Sorry - too busy designing the '87 Club logo to get involved with a badge scheme. T-Shirts would be better. Embroidered polo shirts for the golf course. Badges are naff. Last badge I had was for the Rush 'Farewell to Kings' tour in 1977. Now, about these T-Shirts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hey, I'm here. Sorry - too busy designing the '87 Club logo to get involved with a badge scheme. T-Shirts would be better. Embroidered polo shirts for the golf course. Badges are naff. Last badge I had was for the Rush 'Farewell to Kings' tour in 1977. Now, about these T-Shirts.... You should see the amount of badges they have in the QOS club shop. Any excuse for one - look: http://www.qosfcstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=8&zenid=sbjeldr08r070igf04946kjkp4 They even had one when they made the semis of the Challenge Cup - suppose it's the equivalent of c*ltic releasing a DVD every 10 minutes. Can't wait for the director's commentary on coverage of the Neil Lennon candlelit vigil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthro Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but I can't see it anywhere and it's the question i've saw asked the most.... Just what is in it for the likes of Richard and Chris? What are/do they get out of this? They're putting in a lot of man hours (and presumably money in legal fee's etc. It's difficult for the cynical amongst us (like me) to see what benefit they're getting, other than the obvious directors of an SPL club. Is it the chance to sell off the rights to a 10,000 hours type thing to other (football) clubs, or offer their services to other interested party(s) for a fee? Which i'd have no problem with, as it would mean St Mirren's CIC is a success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Can we pay our £10 a month by standing order or does it need to be direct debit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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