Gary Harkins Signs 2 Year Deal

[Lex]

It doesn't really matter when you wobbled, just that you did. You're arguing one point with faraway and forgot you'd argued the opposite with me - Janus!

What I'm saying is that different players are signed for different amounts of money and with different expectations to try and judge them all be the same standards is folly.

If you had read what i said i posted that the reaction during Dundees death rattle. By your reckoning a pre season wobble is the same as a post split wobble? They could have caught us with 9 games to go, they realistically couldn't have with 5 games to go. Simple.

Well tell us what permanent signings Danny has made in the last 2 years that - by your variable standards - have been a success?

[Bud the Baker]

If you had read what i said i posted that the reaction during Dundees death rattle. By your reckoning a pre season wobble is the same as a post split wobble? They could have caught us with 9 games to go, they realistically couldn't have with 5 games to go. Simple.

It always amazes me when people are caught contradicting themselves the strops they go into and the lengths they will goto muddy the waters.

Well tell us what permanent signings Danny has made in the last 2 years that - by your variable standards - have been a success?

Permanent signing by Lennon in the last two years whose been a success, Paul McGowan - case dismissed m'lud!

You give yourself away on that front too in your earlier post by saying permanent signings which are all example of Lennon's poor judgement according to you whereas the success of the loan signings were were down to luck.

For the record on last summers permanent signings

• Smith couldn't be faulted as a third choice keeper
• Parkin did fine as I've already said leaving with a LC winners medal.
• Jury's still out on Guy & Robertson
• Adam a failure but that's due to unknown disciplinary reasons
• McGinn who you seem to have forgot, rather conveniently, as you initially criticized Lennon for not resigning him only for it to become clear it was the player himself who knocked back the deal - strange one, but yeah another failure although likely not too expensive.

Finally are you really saying we should use the same criteria to judge say Graham Carey & Jon Robertson who clearly came in on vastly different circumstances & wages and with vastly different expectations from our support?

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bud the Baker

[Lex]

It always amazes me when people are caught contradicting themselves the strops they go into and the lengths they will goto muddy the waters.

Permanent signing by Lennon in the last two years whose been a success, Paul McGowan - case dismissed m'lud!

You give yourself away on that front too in your earlier post by saying permanent signings which are all example of Lennon's poor judgement according to you whereas the success of the loan signings were were down to luck.

For the record on last summers permanent signings

• Smith couldn't be faulted as a third choice keeper
• Parkin did fine as I've already said leaving with a LC winners medal.
• Jury's still out on Guy & Robertson
• Adam a failure but that's due to unknown disciplinary reasons
• McGinn who you seem to have forgot, rather conveniently, as you initially criticized Lennon for not resigning him only for it to become clear it was the player himself who knocked back the deal - strange one, but yeah another failure although likely not too expensive.

Finally are you really saying we should use the same criteria to judge say Graham Carey & Jon Robertson who clearly came in on vastly different circumstances & wages and with vastly different expectations from our support?

I never contradicted myself though did I? Dundees death rattle clearly started when they beat us at St Mirren Park, and if you read what i said i posted about my optimism ' during Dundees death rattle '. Unlucky.

Paul McGowan was signed permanently in the summer of 2011. In the same summer as Thompson, Teale, Hasselbaink and Tesselaar. All of those signings were successes. Since the transfer window closed in the summer of 2011, he's not had one success in the transfer market.

I never said the loan signings were down to luck. He was lucky that those succeses took attention away from his failures in the transfer market but the signings themselves weren't lucky.

The loan market and the transfer market are very different beasts. Danny's success in the loan market is unquestionable and he deserves credit for it. He was 3 successes from 3 there last season and it was those 3 players that made the difference and won us the cup. They aren't our players though and the club makes no capital gains from their success. This is why it would be much better for us as a club if he could transmit that loan market success into the transfer market.

There's a difference between being 'fine' an being a success i'm sure you will agree. Parkin spent most of his Saints career on the bench and was released at the first opportunity. Is this 'fine' ? Debatable. It's certainly not a success.

Jurys still out on Guy? Not according to the management, they've made up their mind and he's been told he can leave, despite having a year left. Robbo had plenty of chances last season and took none of them, it wouldn't surprise me if he never plays for us again. I expect him to be punted out on loan again before being released.

I'd forgotten about McGinn to be honest, thanks for reminding me. That's 9 failures from 9 permanent signings since August 2011.

As for your final point, any senior player signed by St Mirren on a permanent basis should be expected to make an impact on the first team. We can't afford to be signing players who never play. A success for Robbo would have been to make a decent fist of his first SPL season and to nail down a regular starting slot, like McGregor done in his first season. He failed to do this.

[faraway saint]

All of the posts on this thread underline Lex's transparent attempts to undermine the manager.

He will go to any lengths to dig around and produce facts to suit his agenda.

A particularly snakey approach but all rather tedious.

[marrez]

I dont think he is trying to undermine the manager - he's just a passionate superfan. No question Danny needs to get this seasons transfers right - I think Harkins is a good signing and will prove Lex wrong but who knows?

[faraway saint]

I dont think he is trying to undermine the manager - he's just a passionate superfan. No question Danny needs to get this seasons transfers right - I think Harkins is a good signing and will prove Lex wrong but who knows?

When the vast majority of posts slowly but surely pick fault? As you say, Harkins has thrown many views but Lex harps on and on and on about negatives. Who knows but I sure as hell know if it doesnt work out someone will tell us all he said so.

Sure, he thows the odd positive in but the lengths he goes to do dig up facts is, yes, superfan right enough.

Sorry, need to agree to disagree.

Edited June 5, 2013 by faraway saint

[Bud the Baker]

Well tell us what permanent signings Danny has made in the last 2 years that - by your variable standards - have been a success?

.

Paul McGowan was signed permanently in the summer of 2011. In the same summer as Thompson, Teale, Hasselbaink and Tesselaar. All of those signings were successes. Since the transfer window closed in the summer of 2011, he's not had one success in the transfer market.

Yet another clear case of trying to shift the goalposts when you've made a mistake - but then that's your style.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bud the Baker

[Lex]

All of the posts on this thread underline Lex's transparent attempts to undermine the manager.

He will go to any lengths to dig around and produce facts to suit his agenda.

A particularly snakey approach but all rather tedious.

I dont think he is trying to undermine the manager - he's just a passionate superfan. No question Danny needs to get this seasons transfers right - I think Harkins is a good signing and will prove Lex wrong but who knows?

When the vast majority of posts slowly but surely pick fault? As you say, Harkins has thrown many views but Lex harps on and on and on about negatives. Who knows but I sure as hell know if it doesnt work out someone will tell us all he said so.

Sure, he thows the odd positive in but the lengths he goes to do dig up facts is, yes, superfan right enough.

Sorry, need to agree to disagree.

I love when other fans get into a debate on my level of fandom. Carry on lads, don't let me get in the way

Yet another clear case of trying to shift the goalposts when you've made a mistake - but then that's your style.

Jeez, do you actually read anything i say? I clearly said since the ' summer of hope in 2011 '. I gave Thommo and Teale as examples of successful signings for crying out loud. Both of them signed after McGowan!

Now are you going to answer the question or are you going to keep on with the pedantry? I'll give you a tip though, if you're going to be pedantic, at least try get it right

Edited June 5, 2013 by Lex

[Bud the Baker]

I love

But are you disputing it?

I'd advise you to read what you post before you send it to avoid any more mishaps.

[Lex]

But are you disputing it?

I'd advise you to read what you post before you send it to avoid any more mishaps.

See your member title, about 92% of your posts being garbage. I think that figure may need revised

[Griff]

With regards to Danny Lennons signings , I would say that his use of the loan system was exceptional , and as for the players he signed on one and two year contracts , I would say they were adequate signings , in so much as they kept us in the SPL , and contributed to a League Cup win and a decent Scottish Cup run.

I don,t think there was any great expectation of last seasons signings as they were all rather modest signings , which beefed up the previous seasons squad ( which had a few good signings ).

Danny has made a decent start to his squad rebuild , I,m hoping this will encourage other quality players to sign for us , and I,m also hopeful Danny will continue to maxamise the loan system ,

So keep up the good work Dannny

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

Gowser:

“I looked the boss in the eye and gave him my word I would not sign for another SPL club."

What a guy!

Danny Lennon stated that McGowan had vowed if he was staying in Scotland it would be with Saints. Nice to see some can still keep their word.

Harkins got the makings of a centre back with cheezy by Xmas, yet another pay-off next year

Maybe if he goes early & he needs a fwe extra quid he can get work in a butchers somewhere between Paisley & Glasgow.....

[Mr Zo]

If you had read what i said i posted that the reaction during Dundees death rattle. By your reckoning a pre season wobble is the same as a post split wobble? They could have caught us with 9 games to go, they realistically couldn't have with 5 games to go. Simple.

Well tell us what permanent signings Danny has made in the last 2 years that - by your variable standards - have been a success?

Steven Thompson?

I started a wee thread in the rumour mill towards the end of last year saying I thought Harkins would be a decent shout for us should McGowan leave. Pleased he has signed for us and even more pleased that McGowan has signed on for one more season.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Mr Zo

[Guest somner9]

Steven Thompson?

And Goodwin?

[Tam M]

Steven Thompson?

He's already said with the exception of Thompson and Teale and I agree with his point that Thompson wanted to come to St Mirren, what manager would be daft enough not to sign him? Teale was signed because he is good friends with Brian Caldwell, again any SPL manager offered Teale would have snapped him up.

To be fair Lex makes some good points about the permanent signings Danny has made recently. He has been brilliant in the loan market. However, I am pleased with the Harkins signing and I believe the type of football we play will suit him. Hopefully Danny will go for a smaller squad, but with more quality and use more of the youth players available to us for cover.

[lovestreet]

Knowing who's coming in we have a genuine stake for 2nd next season and certainly top 4 without doubt.

[faraway saint]

Knowing who's coming in we have a genuine stake for 2nd next season and certainly top 4 without doubt.

The best yet.

[Tam M]

Knowing who's coming in we have a genuine stake for 2nd next season and certainly top 4 without doubt.

My gran knows more than you and she's six feet under.

[Mr Zo]

Hopefully the baldy webmaster will shed some more light on this 'big' signing at 5's tonight.

[Lex]

Jeez. I must be putting my point across incorrectly as so many people are missing it, apologies. Here we go, 1 more time.

In the summer of 2011 ( not last pre season but the pre season before ) - aka 2 years ago, or 1 year 10 months for the pedants - the club had a fantastic transfer window. Thompson, Teale, McGowan, Hasselbaink, Tesselaar and Carey all arrived on permanent deals. They were all a success bar one - Carey. A fantastic return without question. Goodwin arrived in January 2011, before all of them.

Since then - since the summer of 2011 - Danny has made 9 permanent signings. They are, in vague order: Haddad, Imrie, Guy, Robertson, P McGinn, Adam, Parkin, Smith and Puri. They are Danny's last 9 signings. Not one of them has managed to establish themselves in the first team. Only 1 of the 9 ( Parkin ) played any part in the LC final by coming on as a sub. Adam was an unused sub and the other 7 failed to even make the bench for one reason or another.

Statistically, that is pretty astounding. You maybe don't expect a Thommo or a Goodwin in every signing, but you at least expect 1 or 2 out of 9 to be able to get a game for goodness sake.

We can't continue to rely on clubs like Newcastle and Rio Ave loaning us players of the standard we were lucky enough to enjoy last season. A club reliant on loan players doesn't strike me as very sustainable.

Therefore, fingers crossed that Dannys permanent signings this summer are far more of a success than his last 9. Harkins is the first of what we hope is many, it will be very interesting to see how he and the other new signings do next season. Danny earning himself a new contract will depend on them.

[div]

Whilst I understand the point in general you are making, it's ridiculous to assert that a club that benefits from loan signings is "unsustainable".

Take Newton and Dummett as examples. We invested nothing in their development, they cost us nothing to sign, yet they both played a major part in a cup win that netted us a few hundred grand.

Same with Isma.

All three players also contributed heavily to us staying in the SPL. It's difficult to put a price on what that was worth.

I don't really see much difference between signing players permanently versus signing them on loan.

Paul Dummett for example was with us for most of last season, Paul McGowan has just re-signed for 1 season.

Danny was somewhat fortunate with the impact his loan signings made, and that actually contributed to the fact that some of the other players he did sign "permanently" didn't feature much.

Danny does need to do better with his signings but its not quite as cut and dried as you make out.

[E=Mc2]

I genuinely did see a car with reg C9 NSH which I assume is his, BUT it was in largs so hopefully going to Killie

I saw a BMW with H1 BBS passing St. Mirren Park today.

Eventually turned into some airport parking place.

[faraway saint]

I'd imagine that as one of the few teams operating within our budget would make signing gems quite a difficult job?

Having a low budget and, before last season, nothing really to offer decent players, would make not make joining St Mirren a very exciting prospect.

This is the reality that Lennon has had to work with.

Come to think of it, more of a miracle that I thought that we won the league cup under these conditions right enough.

[insaintee]

I never contradicted myself though did I? Dundees death rattle clearly started when they beat us at St Mirren Park, and if you read what i said i posted about my optimism ' during Dundees death rattle '. Unlucky.

Paul McGowan was signed permanently in the summer of 2011. In the same summer as Thompson, Teale, Hasselbaink and Tesselaar. All of those signings were successes. Since the transfer window closed in the summer of 2011, he's not had one success in the transfer market.

I never said the loan signings were down to luck. He was lucky that those succeses took attention away from his failures in the transfer market but the signings themselves weren't lucky.

The loan market and the transfer market are very different beasts. Danny's success in the loan market is unquestionable and he deserves credit for it. He was 3 successes from 3 there last season and it was those 3 players that made the difference and won us the cup. They aren't our players though and the club makes no capital gains from their success. This is why it would be much better for us as a club if he could transmit that loan market success into the transfer market.

There's a difference between being 'fine' an being a success i'm sure you will agree. Parkin spent most of his Saints career on the bench and was released at the first opportunity. Is this 'fine' ? Debatable. It's certainly not a success.

Jurys still out on Guy? Not according to the management, they've made up their mind and he's been told he can leave, despite having a year left. Robbo had plenty of chances last season and took none of them, it wouldn't surprise me if he never plays for us again. I expect him to be punted out on loan again before being released.

I'd forgotten about McGinn to be honest, thanks for reminding me. That's 9 failures from 9 permanent signings since August 2011.

As for your final point, any senior player signed by St Mirren on a permanent basis should be expected to make an impact on the first team. We can't afford to be signing players who never play. A success for Robbo would have been to make a decent fist of his first SPL season and to nail down a regular starting slot, like McGregor done in his first season. He failed to do this.

I think that you might have considered Teale a failure in his first season and Higdon in his first season. For me Parkin and Guy did what it said on the tin, gave us options. Robertson looks ok to me, and I'll be surprised if he does not play for us again, In my opinion he had some pretty good games but mid field is an area we are fairly well stocked in. I'll put my cards down Guy and Tommy to kiss and make up Guy to be here next season.

As Lovestreet would say you heard it here first.

[stlucifer]

I saw a BMW with H1 BBS passing St. Mirren Park today.

Eventually turned into some airport parking place.

Got to say.

That's some transformation!