No Ambition. And A Fool As Manager.

[ds10]

In what way? Is it the manager? The players? The board?

Or is it a little early in both the season, and the new manager's reign, to be pushing the panic button?

I'm not sure how there is any panic button pressing, I simply said the current state of the club is not acceptable.

[ds10]

Fans don't decide to stay away purely on lack of engagement. It's results based more than anything else. In fact it's almost entirely results based.

Admittedly you can't please all of the people all of the time, and results will obviously have a major impact but improving the relationship with the fans would certainly improve the chances of more fans staying around. I think that this is likely to become increasingly important as time goes on and there are more altenatives out there. Also I think it will be crucial to expanding the fan base, which should be a significant target for the club I would assume.

[Lord Pityme]

How long are you willing to give Murray, though?

I am confident that we will finish above all the teams you have referred to. Dumbarton hit the ground running and also defeated Hibs. Do you reckon they'll finish the season above them? Morton were more fired up for the match than we were (no excuse for that, of course), but didn't beat us. Livingston were pretty much as shite as we were but cheated more effectively. Again, they drew with us (in the league).

I don't think four league matches is sufficient evidence upon which to judge a new manager. I agree that we've been pish so far, but, at the risk of labouring the point, it is way too early to panic and call for the manager's head, as some seem to be doing (not yourself, I appreciate).

I'd like to be confident we will finish above QoS, Dumbarton, Morton, Falkirk, Raith.... However its a results business based mainly on good performances, set up and discipline. And we are not hitting the target on any of those four indicators to suggest our from will improve sufficently to move above those teams.

Presently we play a disorganised, stand off style of football interspersed with strange tactical decision making, that serves only to weaken our capability to win football matches. Sure we can wait till Christmas to decide if we should be upset about it or not? By then, if we return the same level of points per game we will be condemned to another relegation battle we are not equipped to win!

[Drew]

I'd like to be confident we will finish above QoS, Dumbarton, Morton, Falkirk, Raith.... However its a results business based mainly on good performances, set up and discipline. And we are not hitting the target on any of those four indicators to suggest our from will improve sufficently to move above those teams.

Presently we play a disorganised, stand off style of football interspersed with strange tactical decision making, that serves only to weaken our capability to win football matches. Sure we can wait till Christmas to decide if we should be upset about it or not? By then, if we return the same level of points per game we will be condemned to another relegation battle we are not equipped to win!

Murray kept Dumbarton in this league with a P/T team, so why would you conclude that he can't do it again, with greater resources?

I have enough confidence in the assembled squad and Murray's ability to learn and adapt to believe that we will finish the season mid-table. Not great, but just about enough for a work in progress.

[pozbaird]

Some of us think we can challenge Sevco and Hibs. Some think we can be a playoff team. Some think just outside the playoffs, mid-table, and some think we will be involved in another relegation battle.

I think that covers everything I've read on here. I'm in the mid-table, just outside the playoffs camp.

Doesn't matter one iota what any of us think. All we have to go on is what Murray and his team have so far delivered.... Which is worrying.

Jingle bells, jingle bells....

[Soctty]

Admittedly you can't please all of the people all of the time, and results will obviously have a major impact but improving the relationship with the fans would certainly improve the chances of more fans staying around. I think that this is likely to become increasingly important as time goes on and there are more altenatives out there. Also I think it will be crucial to expanding the fan base, which should be a significant target for the club I would assume.

I disagree. If we're losing every week but the board are rolling out excuses or giving the fans a weekly opportunity to shout at them, it wouldn't keep them coming along.

There will, I'm sure, be things that we could be doing to help get more fans in, but I don't know what and neither do you unfortunately.

[Lord Pityme]

Murray kept Dumbarton in this league with a P/T team, so why would you conclude that he can't do it again, with greater resources?

I have enough confidence in the assembled squad and Murray's ability to learn and adapt to believe that we will finish the season mid-table. Not great, but just about enough for a work in progress.

Thats it in a nutshell!

His claim to fame is not yet! Being relegated from the championship.... Are we to find out he is a busted flush now in that dept?

How many ST holders will be happy to renew next season if we narrowly avoid relegation in this league??? What perhaps you don't get from me and perhaps a few other posters is this....

We are saints fans through and through, we've been so a long time before this board or management were in situ, and we will still be a long time after they have gone. But that doesn't prevent us from seeing we could be staring down an abyss we could struggle to ever get back out of. We have a board who have disrespected the support at every turn recently,,yes they want out... But that's their problem, does it give them the right to emblazon our stadium with the badges and colours of a rival football club with a large sectarian support?

Does it give them the right to go against the majority opinion and open a club for a select few fans?

Does it give them the right to continue to partner JD sports who preside over cock up after cock up trying to provide the service they say is their speciality?

Oh yeah and HoF-Board gate!

Everything about their decisions are short term, penny pinching, ill conceived... And they have a growing habit of coming back to bite their collective arses deeper each time... The result being we suffer as the product on the park seems to be in terminal decline! If there were green shoots, if we were knocking on the door, if we could say in all honesty 'we wuz robbed'...? Then we could take it,dust ourselves down and look to the next game.

Unfortunately that feeling is in short supply, and more and more saints fans are vocalising their displeasure, next up they vote with their feet and the product declines again as less and less budget is available . We can see it NOW! And we can see where it will lead to, and crucially we know it is all avoidable. Just like it was last season when apparently there were no experienced managers available anywhere!!! To replace TC....

Murray has no track record of managerial success at any level, Dumbarton supporters go on to comment the tactics we see deployed now are the same tactics that shipped 79 goals last season.... So why should we expect to see a different result?

Murray could change tack, get a couple of nasty buggers in to break up the opposition play, and help us to get results, if he doesn't we will, as like his last club be fighting a relegation battle we really do not need to. More than ever it is a time for leadership at our club, carry on as we are to Christmas will see Murray replicate what he achieved at Dumbarton, and will see our Board replicate the clusterf**k of managerial appointments of last season!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord Pityme

[windae cleaner]

Thats it in a nutshell!

His claim to fame is not yet! Being relegated from the championship.... Are we to find out he is a busted flush now in that dept?

How many ST holders will be happy to renew next season if we narrowly avoid relegation in this league??? What perhaps you don't get from me and perhaps a few other posters is this....

We are saints fans through and through, we've been so a long time before this board or management were in situ, and we will still be a long time after they have gone. But that doesn't prevent us from seeing we could be staring down an abyss we could struggle to ever get back out of. We have a board who have disrespected the support at every turn recently,,yes they want out... But that's their problem, does it give them the right to emblazon our stadium with the badges and colours of a rival football club with a large sectarian support?

Does it give them the right to go against the majority opinion and open a club for a select few fans?

Does it give them the right to continue to partner JD sports who preside over cock up after cock up trying to provide the service they say is their speciality?

Oh yeah and HoF-Board gate!

Everything about their decisions are short term, penny pinching, ill conceived... And they have a growing habit of coming back to bite their collective arses deeper each time... The result being we suffer as the product on the park seems to be in terminal decline! If there were green shoots, if we were knocking on the door, if we could say in all honesty 'we wuz robbed'...? Then we could take it,dust ourselves down and look to the next game.

Unfortunately that feeling is in short supply, and more and more saints fans are vocalising their displeasure, next up they vote with their feet and the product declines again as less and less budget is available . We can see it NOW! And we can see where it will lead to, and crucially we know it is all avoidable. Just like it was last season when apparently there were no experienced managers available anywhere!!! To replace TC....

Murray has no track record of managerial success at any level, Dumbarton supporters go on to comment the tactics we see deployed now are the same tactics that shipped 79 goals last season.... So why should we expect to see a different result?

Murray could change tack, get a couple of nasty buggers in to break up the opposition play, and help us to get results, if he doesn't we will, as like his last club be fighting a relegation battle we really do not need to. More than ever it is a time for leadership at our club, carry on as we are to Christmas will see Murray replicate what he achieved at Dumbarton, and will see our Board replicate the clusterf**k of managerial appointments of last season!

I know you get slated on here but i agree with this post

The short term penny pinching on personal has cost us more in the long run

The issue i have with Murray is i have heard from various sources who have been involved with him.

He's a stubborn bugger and unlikely to change his ways about tactics and way of playing

Well all i will say i hope he starts to be more flexible in the future

It's only us fans who will suffer again

[Drew]

It's only us fans who will suffer again

You don't think relegation would ruin his career prospects?

If Murray can't learn (in reasonable due course) from his mistakes/errors in judgement, then he shouldn't be in management, never mind football management.

He has a contract, and will have to work to that. It is overseen by the BoD, who are ultimately responsible if things go to f**k.

To suggest he is too stubborn to adapt, based on anecdotal tittle tattle seems a bit unfair.

Just a suggestion, but could we try and give the guy the benefit of the doubt and a little respect at this stage in his tenure. We'll no doubt establish soon enough if he is up to the job.

People looking to hound him out already need to have a look at themselves. A fifth manager in little more than 18 months? Good luck with that.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Drew

[pozbaird]

You don't think relegation would ruin his career prospects?

If Murray can't learn (in reasonable due course) from his mistakes/errors in judgement, then he shouldn't be in management, never mind football management.

He has a contract, and will have to work to that. It is overseen by the BoD, who are ultimately responsible if things go to f**k.

To suggest he is too stubborn to adapt, based on anecdotal tittle tattle seems a bit unfair.

Just a suggestion, but could we try and give the guy the benefit of the doubt and a little respect at this stage in his tenure. We'll no doubt establish more definitely soon enough if he is up to the job.

People looking to hound him out already need to have a look at themselves. A fifth manager in little more than 18 months? Good luck with that.

So Murray is a stubborn fcuker who won't change for anyone? Good stuff. We're going up, staying up, winning the diddy cup, the reserve League Cup, and reaching the League Cup final again.

Hurrah!

[shull]

I will renew my Season Ticket no matter what League we are in.

[BuddieinEK]

What are you blethering about. Did I strike a nerve or something?

Not at all.

I love a good blether.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

How rapid was there improvement under the new manager? Within four matches? The previous manager had been there for several seasons, so had been afforded every opportunity to get it right.

Just saying.

You appear to be mistaking me for someone saying Murray should be sacked after 4 league games. You cited Ross County as an example of a team who had a bad start and improved. I pointed out they dispensed with their manager after 1 month last season. McIntyre took over as the window was shutting and had to wait mostly until the start of the January window before he could bring in his own players. I seem to remember once he had his own squad in place they went on a run and became the form team in the SPL for a few months with no patience required for his rebuilding job to gel.

[TopCat]

I will renew my Season Ticket no matter what League we are in.

You're in the silent majority.

Those who come and go depending on how the team are playing are very much in the vocal minority.

Edited August 31, 2015 by TopCat

[Dibbles old paperboy]

I'm willing to give Murray until Christmas before deciding if I rate him as a dud or not.

Edit: So far, we haven't even got the new manager bounce to give us a 'WWDW' look to our statistics.... before it goes tits up and we feel that our stones have been booted.

But hey, it's just football. if Gilmour & Murray oversee St Mirren going down the Dunfermline U-Bend, fcuk it. I still have my health, my family, my cat and my golf, music and photography interests. Fcuk um'.

We'll know all we need to know by the end of October. If by that point we have galvanised and are heading for mid-table mediocrity I will be happy enough as I didn't hold out much hope of going up this season. We will have played 12 league games by that point and our challenge cup game against Dunfermline. Murray's latest signings will have had all of September and October to gel. By waiting until mid-December last year, to not make a decision for another 7 weeks about a replacement manager we left it too late to do anything significant in the January window.

[proudtobeabuddy]

Said it before...and...I'll say it again.. We are 4 games into the season, we have lots of new players who are taking time to gel as a team. I'm aware that some teams hit the ground running right away, we haven't. The performances have not been great but there is no way that you can judge a manager after 4 games with any accuracy. Murray isn't daft and if we don't start winning he knows he'll be under pressure, let's hope it doesn't come to that for his and our (the supporters) sake. I can't say that the guy will have my support indefinitely if we continue to lose...time will tell.

[nosferatu]

You're in the silent majority.

Those who come and go depending on how the team are playing are very much in the vocal minority.

That's what I used to think TC.

I was very wrong though.

[nosferatu]

Murray kept Dumbarton in this league with a P/T team, so why would you conclude that he can't do it again, with greater resources?

I have enough confidence in the assembled squad and Murray's ability to learn and adapt to believe that we will finish the season mid-table. Not great, but just about enough for a work in progress.

Mid table in a 10 team league that includes Alloa, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, Livingston & Morton.

Jeez. That's setting the bar high!

FFS, the target should be the play offs.

We're up against Falkirk & QoS for those spots. Both clubs lost significant players during the summer and have less resources than us.

If Murray can't manage to finish higher than one of them then he should be out the door!

I don't believe he will finish higher than either, hence why I doubt I'll be back this season.

Edited September 1, 2015 by nosferatu

[oaksoft]

You're in the silent majority.

Those who come and go depending on how the team are playing are very much in the vocal minority.

That's what I used to think TC.

I was very wrong though.

You may well be wrong but it's worth remembering that if 3000 people say a stupid thing it's still a stupid thing.

[nosferatu]

You may well be wrong but it's worth remembering that if 3000 people say a stupid thing it's still a stupid thing.

Also worth remembering that just because you think something is stupid doesn't mean it is.

You ain't the font of all wisdom.

[TopCat]

That's what I used to think TC.

I was very wrong though.

Look at the figures they don't lie. Our season ticket sales never change that much. Most season ticket holders renew every season.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Mixu at killie barely won a game until October then it gelled and they went on a great run likewise Stubbs at Hibs last year. Four games is no way enough time to judge a manager - his squad might not even be finalised yet !!!

[Soctty]

Mid table in a 10 team league that includes Alloa, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, Livingston & Morton.

Jeez. That's setting the bar high!

FFS, the target should be the play offs.

We're up against Falkirk & QoS for those spots. Both clubs lost significant players during the summer and have less resources than us.

If Murray can't manage to finish higher than one of them then he should be out the door!

I don't believe he will finish higher than either, hence why I doubt I'll be back this season.

So you are saying you won't be back this season based on your prediction that we won't finish above mid table?

Would it not be best to support the team in the games you think they'll struggle in rather than say you won't be back because you think they'll struggle? Or will you only support them if you get a guarantee they'll do well?

I'd say there is something flawed in that rationale...

[The Original 59er]

The main problem with this new fangled medium called the internet and even more radical, a Forum that allows free expression, is that it allows anyone who thinks they have a right to express them selves openly and to criticise, whether they have the knowledge or not, is that they do it regardless.

Historically (and I mean probably only as far back as the 80's and early 90's) a medium like this never existed, so if you had any form of a grumble you wrote to the newspaper and they in turn would consider it, edit it and maybe print it if they had nothing better to fill the column inches.

Not now, you clatter the keyboard, you vent your spleen and you stand back to admire the negativity you create.

In the case of the Saints, well we've been here before and it is a transitional period, however probably none of you who write vindictive and negative sentences have ever managed, coached or played football at the standard you write about.

If for example you are a mechanic, does that make you an expert on aircraft design or jet propulsion. If you are a writer of detective novels, does that make you a Shakespearean prose writer? Of course not, so as a follower of football does that give you the ability (note I didn't say the right), to criticise or spout your views on tactics or systems to all and sundry?

Let the management team have a season. Let them make mistakes, let them have success. If you were there on Saturday you would see that Saints are a team low on confidence and low on free-flowing expression. That comes with confidence and winning a few games. Just get off their backs for a change!

[Drew]

Mid table in a 10 team league that includes Alloa, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, Livingston & Morton.

Jeez. That's setting the bar high!

FFS, the target should be the play offs.

We're up against Falkirk & QoS for those spots. Both clubs lost significant players during the summer and have less resources than us.

If Murray can't manage to finish higher than one of them then he should be out the door!

I don't believe he will finish higher than either, hence why I doubt I'll be back this season.

I didn't suggest we shouldn't target the play-offs.

Prior to the commencement of the season, I predicted a mid-table finish. I still believe that this will be the outcome. Of course I hope for better things, but I know only to well that, in life, you don't always get what you want. That's no reason to throw in the towel, however.