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Mr Zo

St Mirren V Dumbarton 02/12/2017

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14 minutes ago, zurich_allan said:

As for the actual sending off, it happened right in front of me, I hadn't looked away, was looking right at it. There was contact, but it wasn't his elbow, it was around his forearm, and was absolutely unintentional. It should have been a booking, it absolutely was not a sending off. Again, it was right in front of me, I saw this very clearly, and unless I see video evidence that shows me something I somehow missed, my opinion won't be changing on it. Never a red card.

Happened right in front of me as well. I agree that it wasn't an absolute, definite red card offence, but it was certainly of the type that asks the ref to make a decision between a yellow and a red. Sometimes you get one, sometimes the other. 

Fundamentally disagree that it wasn't the key reason we lost. With 11 on the pitch we would not have let Hutton and Carswell boss the midfield like they did.

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1 minute ago, renfrew said:

From W1 I thought it was a stick on sending off. As you say the highlights will show if the ref got it right or wrong. No disagreement with the rest of your post.

I think there was clearly contact from Stelios on their player however i don't think he was actually intending to elbow the player. He was running backwards to head the ball and used both his arms as momentum to jump, their player was running forward and jumped and Stelios arm collided with neck or head. The ref is always gonna send the player off for that as it looks dangerous, however i think it was more clumsy play from Stelios rather than any malicious intent. 

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I didn’t think it was an elbow, looked like the forearm and my initial reaction was he was getting a red card. 

The speed he charged in leading with the forearm, I couldn’t see anything other than a red card coming his way. 

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Nothing to do with his sending off but Stelios is nowhere near good enough. Can't for the life of me understand the adulation he receives. Maybe as a fullback to fill in when we are short but otherwise no where near up to it.

Probably a yellow today for him but can't complain about Dallas interpreting it as a red.

Not good enough from Reilly either and hasn't been for a while. Obvious to me why Hearts and Dunfermline got rid. Not all his fault with the constant high balls being lumped at him. 

I would have started Sutton up front today as the partner for Reilly and let Reilly play off him with his pace.  Let McGennis do the Smith role.

Morgan had a stinker which didn't help matters. 

One of the worst performances under Jack Ross. Jack Ross has to question himself also over his tactics and the performance level of the team today. Did not react quick enough to what was obvious I reckon to most fans. 

I think United will win this league and we will be in a play off. There is no way this current team will beat any Premiership team in play off.

 

 

Edited by lenziebud

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12 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Nothing to do with his sending off but Stelios is nowhere near good enough. Can't for the life of me understand the adulation he receives. Maybe as a fullback to fill in when we are short but otherwise no where near up to it.

 

 

 

I'm in the same boat.

The odd time, and it's pretty rare, he plays well he does have a big impact but it does get blown out of proportion by many.

Not close to good enough for us IF we get into the big league.

Would get eaten up. 

 

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19 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Nothing to do with his sending off but Stelios is nowhere near good enough. Can't for the life of me understand the adulation he receives. Maybe as a fullback to fill in when we are short but otherwise no where near up to it.

Probably a yellow today for him but can't complain about Dallas interpreting it as a red.

Not good enough from Reilly either and hasn't been for a while. Obvious to me why Hearts and Dunfermline got rid. Not all his fault with the constant high balls being lumped at him

I would have started Sutton up front today as the partner for Reilly and let Reilly play off him with his pace.  Let McGennis do the Smith role.

Morgan had a stinker which didn't help matters. 

One of the worst performances under Jack Ross. Jack Ross has to question himself also over his tactics and the performance level of the team today. Did not react quick enough to what was obvious I reckon to most fans. 

I think United will win this league and we will be in a play off. There is no way this current team will beat any Premiership team in play off.

 

 

Exactly!!

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BBC match stats:-

Home TeamSt MirrenAway TeamDumbarton
Possession
Home52%
Away48%
Shots
Home5
Away11
Shots on Target
Home0
Away6
Corners
Home3
Away7
Fouls
Home8
Away10

 

The most telling stat is "zero" shots on target (as against 6 to Dumbarton) the whole game closely followed by 11-5 to Dumbarton on shots at goal and 7-3 to Dumbarton on corner kicks.

This defeat can't all be apportioned to Stelios' red card.

Every team has a bad day and this was one of our most spectacular!

Edited by northstbuddie

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26 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Nothing to do with his sending off but Stelios is nowhere near good enough. Can't for the life of me understand the adulation he receives. Maybe as a fullback to fill in when we are short but otherwise no where near up to it.

Probably a yellow today for him but can't complain about Dallas interpreting it as a red.

Not good enough from Reilly either and hasn't been for a while. Obvious to me why Hearts and Dunfermline got rid. Not all his fault with the constant high balls being lumped at him. 

I would have started Sutton up front today as the partner for Reilly and let Reilly play off him with his pace.  Let McGennis do the Smith role.

Morgan had a stinker which didn't help matters. 

One of the worst performances under Jack Ross. Jack Ross has to question himself also over his tactics and the performance level of the team today. Did not react quick enough to what was obvious I reckon to most fans. 

I think United will win this league and we will be in a play off. There is no way this current team will beat any Premiership team in play off.

 

 

I'm not sure what is obvious to you, however in my opinion he has been one of our best players this season,  16 goals before we even got to December, can't remember the last striker we had that was at that number so quickly.

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2 hours ago, paul torfason said:

absolutely terrible performance,this was a chance to play 2/3 fringe players but didn't,chemistry and body language rotten today,when you get 3 players saying to press we top and staying there it's worrying when put in a performance like that,worst performance ever at Greenhill road,even under Murray or Rae,very unhappy tonight

Certainly not the worst ever, but not good enough.

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1 hour ago, Bearsden buddie said:

I think there was clearly contact from Stelios on their player however i don't think he was actually intending to elbow the player. He was running backwards to head the ball and used both his arms as momentum to jump, their player was running forward and jumped and Stelios arm collided with neck or head. The ref is always gonna send the player off for that as it looks dangerous, however i think it was more clumsy play from Stelios rather than any malicious intent. 

Disagree think Stelios was looking for a bit of afters following the incident where he got a whack a few minutes earlier

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19 minutes ago, Bearsden buddie said:

I'm not sure what is obvious to you, however in my opinion he has been one of our best players this season,  16 goals before we even got to December, can't remember the last striker we had that was at that number so quickly.

6 league goals this season and 2 of them in one match a Livi. Its all about the league this season. Its just my opinion but he doesn't do enough for me when up front on his own. I think he is a far better player playing off another striker and I can't for the life of me understand why Ross persists with him as lone striker.  Especially pumping long high balls to him all the time. and cross balls that he is never going to get near.

We have been getting away with it due to the quality of Morgan. 

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Really worrying how poor we were today.  The players actually looked like they believe their own hype today. No effort, pace , proper decision making I don't think anyone could claim to have had a good game. Compared to the game Tuesday night it's unbelievable how far the standards dropped since then.  Really hope this is just a one off or we can forget title talk , abysmal today.

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absolutely terrible performance,this was a chance to play 2/3 fringe players but didn't,chemistry and body language rotten today,when you get 3 players saying to press we top and staying there it's worrying when put in a performance like that,worst performance ever at Greenhill road,even under Murray or Rae,very unhappy tonight

Naw it isnae

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I have to comment on one thing, in defence of Stellios, as I've read a lot of really negative comments about him that I think are incredibly unfair for two reasons. First of all, our defeat today has nothing to do with going down to ten men, as really it made absolutely no difference to how we played. Our defeat was down to:

Atrocious control and passing.
Constantly lingering on the ball, being very slow to release the ball, and often not looking up to see who was looking for the ball.
Not competing physically.
Being second to every ball.
Panicking on the ball for absolutely NO reason several times.
Trying to play a long ball game instead of getting the ball on the deck, even though we were being beaten in the air to everything.
Constantly slipping and losing possession when trying to do too much with the ball needlessly.

Essentially, we were terrible all over the park in every position at even the most basic of football technique today from start to finish.

The ONLY player that should get pass marks today in my opinion was McShane. Nobody else.

As for the actual sending off, it happened right in front of me, I hadn't looked away, was looking right at it. There was contact, but it wasn't his elbow, it was around his forearm, and was absolutely unintentional. It should have been a booking, it absolutely was not a sending off. Again, it was right in front of me, I saw this very clearly, and unless I see video evidence that shows me something I somehow missed, my opinion won't be changing on it. Never a red card.

Good post, but McShane...really?

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I'd go for Sutton n Reilly up front, we need someone to hold the ball better for Reilly to play off.

Hmmm.
Hindsight and all that...
Think Stelios was off at half time or just after with Sutton coming on if it hadn't been for the sending off.

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Bad day at the office, I'm afraid. Even before the sending-off, we were well off the pace. Big change from Tuesday night. We didn't seem able to play through the opposing defence as we did against Livi. Instead we played too many high balls up to Reilly who had little chance of collecting them. And against such a big defence we really missed the pace of Cammy Smith.

Stelios was played out of position, so unlike some others on here, I don't think he should be condemned for a poor game. However, he was out of order with the tackle and deserved to go. I agree with insaintee that he was looking for payback following some rough treatment earlier, but that doesn't excuse him.

Thought we actually improved a little in the second half but, like some others, I wondered why JR took so long to use the subs. The Dumbarton goal looked like it was coming for a little while  before it arrived.

Disappointed to hear some of our fans getting on the backs of our players, especially later in the game when it was clear they had struggled from the start.  Shouting abuse at them at that point wasn't going to make them play any better.

Don't think there's any need to panic yet. As JR has said, there will be ups and downs throughout the season. We have the ideal opponents next week to help us get back to winning ways. However, I agree that we will need to strengthen the team in January to be ready for playoffs which is where I think we will finish up.

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2 hours ago, zurich_allan said:

I have to comment on one thing, in defence of Stellios, as I've read a lot of really negative comments about him that I think are incredibly unfair for two reasons. First of all, our defeat today has nothing to do with going down to ten men, as really it made absolutely no difference to how we played. Our defeat was down to:

Atrocious control and passing.
Constantly lingering on the ball, being very slow to release the ball, and often not looking up to see who was looking for the ball.
Not competing physically.
Being second to every ball.
Panicking on the ball for absolutely NO reason several times.
Trying to play a long ball game instead of getting the ball on the deck, even though we were being beaten in the air to everything.
Constantly slipping and losing possession when trying to do too much with the ball needlessly.

Essentially, we were terrible all over the park in every position at even the most basic of football technique today from start to finish.

The ONLY player that should get pass marks today in my opinion was McShane. Nobody else.

As for the actual sending off, it happened right in front of me, I hadn't looked away, was looking right at it. There was contact, but it wasn't his elbow, it was around his forearm, and was absolutely unintentional. It should have been a booking, it absolutely was not a sending off. Again, it was right in front of me, I saw this very clearly, and unless I see video evidence that shows me something I somehow missed, my opinion won't be changing on it. Never a red card.

Absolutely spot on . Only not too sure about red card looked pretty bad from where I was

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16 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

6 league goals this season and 2 of them in one match a Livi. Its all about the league this season. Its just my opinion but he doesn't do enough for me when up front on his own. I think he is a far better player playing off another striker and I can't for the life of me understand why Ross persists with him as lone striker.  Especially pumping long high balls to him all the time. and cross balls that he is never going to get near.

We have been getting away with it due to the quality of Morgan. 

Fair enough if that is your opinion, however i think his work rate up front throughout most games is amazing, he has a lot of great link up play with the midfield and gives 100% most games. Today I agree we did not play well with just him up front, but compare that with the game just 4 days ago where that system worked very well, the reason Jack has been sticking with him there the majority of games is because it has been working. If we were sitting mid table i'd agree with you but we were top of the league at the start of play today. I do think that we need another option for games like today where that system is not working, but you cant deny that we have been pretty good this season in that system

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6 league goals this season and 2 of them in one match a Livi. Its all about the league this season. Its just my opinion but he doesn't do enough for me when up front on his own. I think he is a far better player playing off another striker and I can't for the life of me understand why Ross persists with him as lone striker.  Especially pumping long high balls to him all the time. and cross balls that he is never going to get near.

We have been getting away with it due to the quality of Morgan. 

 

6 league goals makes him joint top scorer in the league.

 

2 goals away to the team in 3rd is surely a good thing.

 

A bad day at the office for all buds but I'd certainly rather have Reilly in the team than anyone else we can afford.

 

But like you say it's all about opinions- hopefully we're all laughing about this at the title party next May

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Unlike many I was not impressed very much by Dumbarton. I thought we were absolutely woeful. When we had 10 they did not look that interested in attacking and it was after they scored that they suddenly realised they could win the game. In the first half we were good defensively and the midfield 2 but the front 4 were pretty much having a shocking game. Second half more of the defence went down the poor level except Baird and Davis who were by a mile the only players to get pass marks. Dumbarton did not have to do much today to get the points. Terrible day at the office.

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Re the worst performance of the season howlers, it was bad.

But it didn’t come near the 5-0 humbling we got at Firhill or the 4-1 hounding we got at Cappielow a couple of weeks later.

They were two of the worst St Mirren performances I’ve ever seen, casting aside the limitations of this season.

Losing at home to Dumbarton? Jack Ross has made a habit of that. We lost 0-1 at home to Dumbarton in November 2016.

Everything changes but you.

I know there’s a large section of the St Mirren support who have convinced themselves we are a good side with a great young manager.

Back in the real world, we are a very average team with a young manager who’s making mistake after mistake after...

I guess we will finish top 4. Because we are less bad than 6 of the rest of the teams in our league. As we should be given our budget.

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Unlike many I was not impressed very much by Dumbarton. I thought we were absolutely woeful. When we had 10 they did not look that interested in attacking and it was after they scored that they suddenly realised they could win the game. In the first half we were good defensively and the midfield 2 but the front 4 were pretty much having a shocking game. Second half more of the defence went down the poor level except Baird and Davis who were by a mile the only players to get pass marks. Dumbarton did not have to do much today to get the points. Terrible day at the office.

 

 

What you want from Dumbarton?

 

They’re a part time side who train for a couple of hours on a Tuesday and Thursday evening and play on a Saturday. These guys who beat us today have work on Monday.

 

You want them to come to Paisley, rip it up with some great football then take the 3 points? Why?

 

Why can’t they come to Paisley, shitfest it, then walk off happy with the money?

 

That’s what I’d do. That’s what they did.

 

Again.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TopCat said:

Re the worst performance of the season howlers, it was bad.

But it didn’t come near the 5-0 humbling we got at Firhill or the 4-1 hounding we got at Cappielow a couple of weeks later.

They were two of the worst St Mirren performances I’ve ever seen, casting aside the limitations of this season.

Losing at home to Dumbarton? Jack Ross has made a habit of that. We lost 0-1 at home to Dumbarton in November 2016.

Everything changes but you.

I know there’s a large section of the St Mirren support who have convinced themselves we are a good side with a great young manager.

Back in the real world, we are a very average team with a young manager who’s making mistake after mistake after...

I guess we will finish top 4. Because we are less bad than 6 of the rest of the teams in our league. As we should be given our budget.

Total junk. Just another laughable tirade against Jack Ross trying to justify your silly thread last season.

We are not a great side but we are 2nd top and challenging. Jack Ross has done a superb job at St Mirren.

I don't think personally we will go up this season but I think we will next. I think Ross's judgement of players and areas of weakness has been superb and I think he'll learn a lot this season and put us up next.

I used to read your comments before the Jack Ross thread last season and you came across as sensible poster but since the Jack Ross thread its been nonsense. Man up and admit you were wrong

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