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Stubbs can go now


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10 minutes ago, TopCat said:

Can you imagine.

 

Sacking a manager after four league games.

 

One of which we won, and two of which were at Tynecastle and Ibrox. Indeed the only surprising result was losing at home to Livi, who are clearly quite good and beat Hibs today.

 

We also qualified from the league cup group stage for the first time.

 

I don’t know if Stubbs will be any good or not. To sack him now would be nothing short of bat shit crazy though.

 

If we are 11th or 12th at Christmas he should go. Until then, give him time.

 

The level of vitriol directed at him is utterly bizarre.

 

 

Those stats don't tell the full story though. There is clearly a disconnect between coaching staff and players, are leaking goals and the only experienced centre half we have will be out for 6 months. About half his signings can't get into the side as Stubbs has realised they weren't very good, and he had time to address the deficiencies in the squad last week and chose not to. After we signed Hodson he said he hoped to bring in 3 or 4 more, and we all knew what we needed - experienced centre half who can lead and organise, left midfielder with a bit of pace and a striker. What do we get? Another central midfielder on loan. 

Its ineptitude of the highest order, which makes most of us wonder where our next point is coming from. And that's before we get onto his lack of encouragement during games, strange team selections and formation choices and post match interviews where he speaks as if nothing is to do with him. 

Apart from all that, he's doing great. 

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3 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Those stats don't tell the full story though. There is clearly a disconnect between coaching staff and players, are leaking goals and the only experienced centre half we have will be out for 6 months. About half his signings can't get into the side as Stubbs has realised they weren't very good, and he had time to address the deficiencies in the squad last week and chose not to. After we signed Hodson he said he hoped to bring in 3 or 4 more, and we all knew what we needed - experienced centre half who can lead and organise, left midfielder with a bit of pace and a striker. What do we get? Another central midfielder on loan. 

Its ineptitude of the highest order, which makes most of us wonder where our next point is coming from. And that's before we get onto his lack of encouragement during games, strange team selections and formation choices and post match interviews where he speaks as if nothing is to do with him. 

Apart from all that, he's doing great. 

Have to agree, particularly re his signings, he surely can't have thought all these are ones for the future, some of them need to be capable now and much as I hope to be wrong, they seem just about as capable as he is.

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4 hours ago, magnus said:

Do you remember Cadbury's getting raided occasionally and the culprits dumping the ill gotten gains on the dummy railway? Nobody was allowed to look for fear of a doing. Brings back memories of 5 boys chocolate and chocolate eclairs.

 

In fairness I might have dreamt this.

I can also remember the ill gottens gains being hidden in the old wash buildings behind the houses at Falside Rd  :wasntme   allegedly  :rolleyes:

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11 minutes ago, jaybee said:

I thought I was pretty definitive about who 'I think' runs the club and whilst I am sure SMISA have an input as do 'other' directors who do you suppose has the final say?   Or are you really one of those who needs a nappy change:lol:

I thought my meaning was pretty clear. 

Dumbo Bud thinks that fan ownership would be a bad thing when it comes to making decisions, and that having a Bod to make decisions is the way to go.

I merely suggested that, in this case, a decision made by the BoD seems to have been somewhat flawed so far.

 

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1 hour ago, the barrhead teacher said:

Regarding the back four, Baird was consistently good when paired with Davis and to a lesser extent Mackenzie. Both players coached, interacted and talked Baird through the game and immensely helped his confidence and play. This year he appears the best on show and is suffering from that lack of leadership. As others have pointed out the recruitment defensively has been Stubbs biggest problem and his immediate challenge to address though coaching

We are missing a centre half of Davis's quality and to be fair we will be very lucky to get someone as good again. Davis wasn't big but he had that Jackie Copland/Tommy Turner type of assurance and intelligence that made players around him do a bit better. All our young centre backs need this help.

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Those stats don't tell the full story though. There is clearly a disconnect between coaching staff and players, are leaking goals and the only experienced centre half we have will be out for 6 months. About half his signings can't get into the side as Stubbs has realised they weren't very good, and he had time to address the deficiencies in the squad last week and chose not to. After we signed Hodson he said he hoped to bring in 3 or 4 more, and we all knew what we needed - experienced centre half who can lead and organise, left midfielder with a bit of pace and a striker. What do we get? Another central midfielder on loan. 
Its ineptitude of the highest order, which makes most of us wonder where our next point is coming from. And that's before we get onto his lack of encouragement during games, strange team selections and formation choices and post match interviews where he speaks as if nothing is to do with him. 
Apart from all that, he's doing great. 


So essentially your point is we shouldn’t be judging him on results, but on some immeasurable ‘disconnect with the players’ factor?

Clearly some of his signings aren’t going to be good enough, but that’s certainly not a new thing. Take a look at our new signings from last summer and how most of them fared.

We need to remember here that our realistic aim this season is 10th. We are goal difference away from that just now, having already played at Tynecastle and Ibrox in our first four league games.

The problem Stubbs seems to have is that he has had a very tough opening set of fixtures (Pittodrie, Tynecastle and Ibrox by the 1st of September) along with Celtic at home next. And apparently he doesn’t come across well on the touchline or in interviews.

This in particular seems to be a major issue for our fans. Example, Danny Lennon (good in interviews, finished 11th in his first season). Tommy Craig (bad in interviews and sacked while we were 11th in his first season).

I’m fairly certain the club will give Stubbs to Christmas, and they should. Scott would really be admitting a monumental f**k up on his part by sacking a manager he gave a 3 year contract to before then, not to mention the financial cost. If we are 11th or 12th on Christmas Day Stubbs goes. If we are not, he stays, regardless of how he interviews or if he claps the fans after games or whatever else. Simple.
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5 minutes ago, TopCat said:

 


So essentially your point is we shouldn’t be judging him on results, but on some immeasurable ‘disconnect with the players’ factor?

Clearly some of his signings aren’t going to be good enough, but that’s certainly not a new thing. Take a look at our new signings from last summer and how most of them fared.

We need to remember here that our realistic aim this season is 10th. We are goal difference away from that just now, having already played at Tynecastle and Ibrox in our first four league games.

The problem Stubbs seems to have is that he has had a very tough opening set of fixtures (Pittodrie, Tynecastle and Ibrox by the 1st of September) along with Celtic at home next. And apparently he doesn’t come across well on the touchline or in interviews.

This in particular seems to be a major issue for our fans. Example, Danny Lennon (good in interviews, finished 11th in his first season). Tommy Craig (bad in interviews and sacked while we were 11th in his first season).

I’m fairly certain the club will give Stubbs to Christmas, and they should. Scott would really be admitting a monumental f**k up on his part by sacking a manager he gave a 3 year contract to before then, not to mention the financial cost. If we are 11th or 12th on Christmas Day Stubbs goes. If we are not, he stays, regardless of how he interviews or if he claps the fans after games or whatever else. Simple.

 

I think most of us are realistic. The worry is that  the way we have played in friendlies, cup competition and league so far makes 10th already  look like a big ask. The team is very poor and to date doesn't seem to be responding to AS's coaching. 

I agree that GLS will give AS time. He was on record that he would have backed JR even if relegated and I suspect that's the case with AS.

We can only hope that AS and his backroom team are decent coaches. It would be tragic to waste the John McGinn windfall on managerial pay offs.

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4 minutes ago, Jack the lad said:

We are woeful defensively and the ironic thing is Stubbs was a decent center half himself!

That's what gets me as well but AS seems to put this down to individual errors and not the fact he has assembled a very inexperienced defence with no experienced defender to help.

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5 hours ago, magnus said:

Do you remember Cadbury's getting raided occasionally and the culprits dumping the ill gotten gains on the dummy railway? Nobody was allowed to look for fear of a doing. Brings back memories of 5 boys chocolate and chocolate eclairs.

 

In fairness I might have dreamt this.

I seem to remember having an endless supply of chocolate when I was a kid :lol:

Panini stickers was another...

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29 minutes ago, magnus said:

We are missing a centre half of Davis's quality and to be fair we will be very lucky to get someone as good again. Davis wasn't big but he had that Jackie Copland/Tommy Turner type of assurance and intelligence that made players around him do a bit better. All our young centre backs need this help.

Bang on.  But... until that happens we are where we are.  The school of hard knocks. 

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2 hours ago, TopCat said:

Can you imagine.

 

Sacking a manager after four league games.

 

One of which we won, and two of which were at Tynecastle and Ibrox. Indeed the only surprising result was losing at home to Livi, who are clearly quite good and beat Hibs today.

 

We also qualified from the league cup group stage for the first time.

 

I don’t know if Stubbs will be any good or not. know if Stubbs will be any good or not. To sack him now would be nothing short of bat shit crazy though.

 

If we are 11th or 12th at Christmas he should go. Until then, give him time.

 

The level of vitriol directed at him is utterly bizarre.

 

 

I can help you with the bit in bold TC. He’s going to be absolutely shite. Hope that helps.

Are you suffering from getting it so spectacularly wrong about JR that you’re frightened of making an arse of yourself again?

Dont think you need to worry this time. He really is hopeless.

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4 hours ago, norrie82 said:

I wouldn’t say a wet sock oaksoft it surprises me why you feel the need to go around spouting utter crap and just having a go at people. It lacks any sort of class and I really do question your intelligence. I am allowed an opinion and I again ask that you just enjoy the opinions and the offer something balanced . Thank you 

Take a moment. Look at your bit underlined above criticising me for having a go at people. That seems fair enough.

But then look at the bold bits. :lol:

It's a thing of real beauty isn't it? 

I think my wet sock comparison  is justified on the basis of this one post of yours. 

I am not confident you are even going to spot what I am getting at but I saw a teachable moment and thought I would try and help. :lol:

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2 hours ago, TopCat said:

Can you imagine.

 

Sacking a manager after four league games.

 

One of which we won, and two of which were at Tynecastle and Ibrox. Indeed the only surprising result was losing at home to Livi, who are clearly quite good and beat Hibs today.

 

We also qualified from the league cup group stage for the first time.

 

I don’t know if Stubbs will be any good or not. To sack him now would be nothing short of bat shit crazy though.

 

If we are 11th or 12th at Christmas he should go. Until then, give him time.

 

The level of vitriol directed at him is utterly bizarre.

 

 

Here is a more sobre point.

No good manager will touch a job like ours if we sack Stubbs now.

We couldnt attract high calibre managers when things were good.

No good manager will give a shit about the performances so far, the apparent background personality clashes or the disconnect between manager and fans. What they will see is a trigger happy board full of unrealistic expectations with zero patience and a bat shit crazy support apparently unfamiliar with the role time plays in any period of success.

People should be careful what they wish for.

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4 hours ago, lenziebud said:

You keep backing Stubbs to come good and I'll go the other way in that I think he's a dud as I have from the day he was appointed.

The funny thing is that I hope you are right

We both want things to turn around and if this was Christmas I might even be agreeing with you.

We are however stuck until the end of this year.

How confident are you that McInytre or any other decent boss would agree to come here if we sack him now?

Stubbs could end up being someone we look back on as maybe not being that bad after all.

I think this argument might be checkmate for any further discussion.

We are stuck for now so we need to stop arguing and find ways to be as supportive as possible until Christmas. We dont have a choice.

Edited by oaksoft
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Having just watched sportscene I'm possibly less inclined to panic. Dundee and Hamilton are every bit as bad as us this season.

Dundee just brought in 2 decent pedigree centre backs who will need time to bed in.
Accies have brought in some decent players, on paper - Kilgallon should stroll this league, the others have potential to work out.

These teams will likely improve (maybe not by much) as these guys are integrated, we however, have no way of improving the personnel in our defence or attack...
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3 hours ago, FTOF said:
3 hours ago, jaybee said:

I thought I was pretty definitive about who 'I think' runs the club and whilst I am sure SMISA have an input as do 'other' directors who do you suppose has the final say?   Or are you really one of those who needs a nappy change:lol:

I thought my meaning was pretty clear. 

Dumbo Bud thinks that fan ownership would be a bad thing when it comes to making decisions, and that having a Bod to make decisions is the way to go.

I merely suggested that, in this case, a decision made by the BoD seems to have been somewhat flawed so far.

Well, whilst I absolutely approve of fans input into a club and have no problem with the likes of SMISA being a minority shareholder; I would have to agree with Dumbo bud on the principle of fans running a club not being the'best' idea I have ever heard and I am likely to be lambasted for this and inundated  with examples of  'other clubs' that have done so successfully.  Don't care it's my opinion.

I may also have to agree with your assessment that perhaps the decision is not working so far and does appear to be extremely flawed, at the moment anyway, however to use another club as an example to explain better my belief in how things work at St Mirren park.  Chelsea have a chairman and three directors who I am sure sit down and discuss a myriad of issues within the club, but when the resolution of all of these issues are put before Roman Abramovich who do you think makes the final decision?  I suppose my real point is the buck stops at the owners door, but hey he is the owner and has that right 

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