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mon the saints!!

Danny Is A Legend, But It's Time For Change...

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Thing is, you kinda knew we weren't going to beat 'Well at the weekend in the same way you just kinda know we're going to get beat by Hibs on Saturday.

It's grim when the team gets into that sort of rut - happened a few times under Macpherson.

First and foremost what you want is for Danny to find a way of fixing it but with every week that goes by and every time you hear him say after the match that we're really, really, really close to turning it around, you do fear for him.

Still deserves a couple of months yet though.

Thing is, I used to go along (a long time ago) with confidence that we would beat certain teams on our own ground. I no longer have that and at times would happily settle for a point at half-time as we were playing so poorly.

Edited by nedflanders123

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You put a lot of valid points forward Pozbaird. Noone would be more happier than me to see the team emulate what Murderwell and other small provincial clubs have done. However, the bottom line here is that those clubs like Motherwell, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen are where they are by racking up more debt than our club are prepared to deal with. Looking at those clubs who have imploded and the reasons why, do we go down that route of increasing the debt to compete with the wages that other club pay and outbid us on?

The game is rooked mate and bringing through youth is the way ahead. Unfortunately, we are unlikely to hold onto any real promising player due to what others can pay in wages. However, what I do feel is that the right manager can bring more to the club and Butcher is a great example of being able to spot players and bring them to the club for little money and/or wages.

There is no doubt that the likely scenario at St Mirren is the BOD cutting cloth to suit to reduce or maintain small levels of debt and live within our means allied to a manager, nice guy that he is, who appears to lack the direction and ability to deal as effectively as other managers do to bring in good enough players to provide the balance and quality within the team.

I am not calling for our BoD to go into debt and splash cash they don't have.... banks wouldn't allow them to anyway. By effectively 'standing still' and playing it relatively canny - we will (and are!) see previously bigger and 'better' clubs than ourselves tumble downwards as we bob along. Here's my problem though - they are tumbling downwards and we are not capitalising on their misfortunes by moving forward ourselves. We are not doing nearly enough to move ourselves up the Scottish football foodchain, and using this period of great uncertainty at other clubs to genuinely establish ourselves. With a trophy in the cabinet, 'the best squad in 20 years', a stable financial footing, a new stadium and a bespoke training facility... we are being out-thought and out-played by the likes of an ICT side newly knitted together (again), and are being tactically shown up by newly promoted Partick. Even our own BuddieinEK saw Partick twice this season, and made many posts about how their full-backs would sweep forward and would be fed on their raids forward by fast, accurate diagonal balls.

At one of those games, Danny Lennon was sitting two rows behind BuddieinEK. A few weeks later, Thistle's left back had the freedom of Renfrewshire bestowed upon him by Danny - who had DVZ and Newton tripping over each other down our right, yet the Thistle boy still had time to light a fag, read the paper, and crack open a beer before putting his latest cross in. We didn't change it until half time. Christ almighty.

Anyway, it's not just Thistle. Adams knows how to rip the pish out of Danny's selections, as does McCall, and most certainly Butcher and a few others.

Something is far from right in the dressing room, and the boardroom. We are shooting ourselves in the bollocks, never mind the foot. The cup win was fan-fcuking-tastic, but I can't even remember the last time I saw us win, much less out-think and out-smart an opponent. The last time we truly got it right was the cup semi final v Celtic, where we had Carey and DVZ backing up on one flank, Isma and Teale backing up on the other, and the rest of the selections and indeed substitutions were bang-on.

Then the close season comes and we shoot ourselves in the baws, and seemingly start falling apart from within.

Edited by pozbaird

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I've seen a few touch on it , and I agree, that there was a feeling of resignation to defeat way before the game ended on Saturday. I 'm actually astounded at DLs thoughts on the game. In reality we were 2nd best all over the park to the poorest Motherwell team I've seen in years , we were never going to score a goal from open play. Anything's possible in football , but can anyone say with any conviction that we're going to turn the corner in the next few games ? We're doon the road unless there are changes at the club from top to bottom ! Deadwood doesn't begin to describe the state we're in !

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if danny were to be sacked ,you couldnt trust the B O D to pick yet another manager having failed the last three or four times .

up until now Danny has not been a failure..gave us our highest ever premier league finish and won us a cup...how is that failure..if the next manager gives us that ill be more than happy...

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We budget for 11th place every year. Can we really expect to bring in a manager that will improve us i.e. a top 6 finish? I highly doubt it.

ICT, Ross County, Partick and St Johnstone must surely have smaller budgets than Saints.

Who is to say that those teams don't finish in the top 6 this year?

We should not be aiming for 11th place.

Our budget is higher than those teams yet last season St Johnstone finished 3rd, Ross County 4th and ICT 5th - and all those teams may have ended up earning more in league bonus payments that Saints made in the cup run.

Maybe it's time the BoD changed that mindset among the supporters as 11th place in the league will involve a play-off this season and given how QoTS turned us over in the LC would anyone fancy our chances in a play-off.

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WTS seems to be guilty of looking for progress, that's all.  Is it good to be in the SP(F)L?  Financially, probably.  Are we in danger of relegation to Division 2?  Obviously not.  But is it wrong to have high hopes?  And I dont mean win the league, I mean top 6.  Are we all just accepting now that ICT/Ross County etc are bigger teams than us?  If that is the general consensus on here then I am worried.

I don't know how you reach that conclusion. WTS said the board can't be trusted to recruit another manager as the last 3-4 haven't been up to it. Excluding Danny, we've had Tom Hendrie who has given most of us one of our most enjoyable seasons ever, Gus who won a first division and challenge cup double and kept us in the SPL. Coughlin wasn't up to scratch admittedly but the other managers hired by SG and co have been fairly sucessfull Saints Managers.

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I don't know how you reach that conclusion. WTS said the board can't be trusted to recruit another manager as the last 3-4 haven't been up to it. Excluding Danny, we've had Tom Hendrie who has given most of us one of our most enjoyable seasons ever, Gus who won a first division and challenge cup double and kept us in the SPL. Coughlin wasn't up to scratch admittedly but the other managers hired by SG and co have been fairly sucessfull Saints Managers.

Gus, aside from the Div 1 title and Bells B&Q Ramsdens Challenge Diddy Cup, also took us to a national cup final and the St Mirren reserves won a cup too. Not too shabby. Actually was a crying shame how the major final panned out - for us all. Still, not too shabby at all. Same as romping to Div 1 in style under Tom Hendrie, and winning the League Cup in considerably exciting fashion under Danny.

To say our last three or four managers haven't cut it is simply wrong.

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When was the last time we stayed 14 or 15 years in division 1?!

I was using your patented method of twisting statistics to suit my own agenda.

In this case I conveniently ignored the year we spent in the SPL at the turn of the millenium.

I thought you'd appreciate seeing your technique spreading amongst other posters.

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I'm not accepting for one second that we are, and always will be, a yo-yo club destined for relegation - maybe next season, or any other season. The Scottish football landscape has dramatically altered - The Sevco imploded, Hearts imploded, Dunfermline imploded, Dundee imploded... Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee United... FAR from the much bigger clubs with better players than us than they used to be.

We should be looking at being a permanent, established, well-run top flight club. Looking UP and maybe sniffing Europe one season, not every season - no divine right I agree.

We shouldn't be perennial relegation 'almost certainties' and still displaying some sort of inferiority 'lucky to be here' corner shop mentality. We should be as solid looking as Motherwell - looking FAR from relegation fodder. If Motherwell can be a forward thinking, European-eyeing club, why can't we?

Sorry, I'm not accepting that we truly are just here on some sort of borrowed time, lucky to have top flight status for a bit, before the inevitable happens.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on this Poz but as fans we can do nothing whatsoever about it.

You'll be a lot happier if you accept that we will inevitably be relegated one day.

That's not about WANTING it to happen. It's about recognising that as fans we can't control it and that outside Celtic, nobody has any sort of right to expect top flight football ad infinitum.

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There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on this Poz but as fans we can do nothing whatsoever about it.

You'll be a lot happier if you accept that we will inevitably be relegated one day.

That's not about WANTING it to happen. It's about recognising that as fans we can't control it and that outside Celtic, nobody has any sort of right to expect top flight football ad infinitum.

I am happy. St Mirren isn't the be all and end all. Sure, I enjoy the forum and spend too much time waffling guff with the rest of you, but believe me, the latest Motherwell defeat didn't even cause me to drive home faster than my 56mph choice, much less put me in a bad mood for any longer than it took me to exit the car park.

However, I do admit to being a supporter who generally cares about how we are getting on, and I firmly believe that in this new Scottish football climate, we shouldn't be a club fighting relegation most seasons.

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I've seen a few touch on it , and I agree, that there was a feeling of resignation to defeat way before the game ended on Saturday. I 'm actually astounded at DLs thoughts on the game. In reality we were 2nd best all over the park to the poorest Motherwell team I've seen in years , we were never going to score a goal from open play. Anything's possible in football , but can anyone say with any conviction that we're going to turn the corner in the next few games ? We're doon the road unless there are changes at the club from top to bottom ! Deadwood doesn't begin to describe the state we're in !

Yip, totally agree with this.

After the capitulation to Thistle there was a lot of anger in the stands, but actually on Saturday there was barely a whimper and a certain resignation that defeat was fairly inevitable.

The whole atmosphere around the club is generally poor at the moment, it feels like we have a huge hangover from that cup win but we need to snap ourselves out of it and pronto.

Either the sale of the club or a change of manager are the most dramatic ways that could happen, the other being that the team starts getting results.

Although I like to be as positive as possible, hand on heart I just can't see the latter happening, I don't think Danny has it in him to turn this round.

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I was using your patented method of twisting statistics to suit my own agenda.

In this case I conveniently ignored the year we spent in the SPL at the turn of the millenium.

I thought you'd appreciate seeing your technique spreading amongst other posters.

There's a difference between twisting statistics and making them up.

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Yip, totally agree with this.

After the capitulation to Thistle there was a lot of anger in the stands, but actually on Saturday there was barely a whimper and a certain resignation that defeat was fairly inevitable.

The whole atmosphere around the club is generally poor at the moment, it feels like we have a huge hangover from that cup win but we need to snap ourselves out of it and pronto.

Either the sale of the club or a change of manager are the most dramatic ways that could happen, the other being that the team starts getting results.

Although I like to be as positive as possible hand on heart I just can't see the latter happening, I don't think Danny has it in him to turn this round.

I genuinely am worried what this is doing to Danny's health.

Do the right thing Danny and get out before this job destroys you.

Board do the right thing and get a doctor to have a look at him.

In many jobs signs of stress like that would have you getting sent home and to a Doctor as a duty of care.

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He will get the next three games but I can't see a win in any of them. We do not really create chances thommos looking isolated up front and the balance is all wrong. Teale at left wing?? Dear o dear. We have no pace down the left to fire in a ball it's so predictable how we play. Hearts will not be bottom for long and trust me when we slip to the bottom this could be 1992 all over again. Danny has to get five points from next three games or I feel it's over. He has had enou time and we the fans are the ones who suffer most and for the longest. The players look as if they are not behind Danny anymore and my source says that in the summer the players revolted against new methods Danny tried to bring in. I don't take any pleasure seeing this guy be hung out by the players but he must be daft if he thought we got our identity back. Our identity was playing Dunfermline off the park in the first game of the 11-12 season and then doing the same to that mob at Ibrox when thommo scored late on. Our identity is lost and if we are to survive we either find it on sat or we change the gaffer

Edited by norrie82

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Yip, totally agree with this.

After the capitulation to Thistle there was a lot of anger in the stands, but actually on Saturday there was barely a whimper and a certain resignation that defeat was fairly inevitable.

The whole atmosphere around the club is generally poor at the moment, it feels like we have a huge hangover from that cup win but we need to snap ourselves out of it and pronto.

Either the sale of the club or a change of manager are the most dramatic ways that could happen, the other being that the team starts getting results.

Although I like to be as positive as possible, hand on heart I just can't see the latter happening, I don't think Danny has it in him to turn this round.

Thing is Div, the performance before the cup win was no better in all honesty. The cup did paper over cracks and while it was super to win the cup it only masked our terrible league record. As you say, something is wrong at the club and the Directors need to sort it out before people begin to vote with their feet. Danny, as much as I like the guy, talked like a defeated man on Saturday and spouted the usual positive stuff. The least I expect from a team is hard work, dedication and commitment. If players cannot deliver those as a 'gimme' then I do not want to see them at my club. There is only so many times you can come out with the same statements but in the end it is about seeing progression and this season has seen us take a huge step back. Whatever the reasons, and there must be something going on, the club need to resolve it before it gets to a point similar to when the team had that horrendous run under Gus. Hearts will show fight and AJ at Killie will find his feet at some point. This season looks like a long hard slog and miles away from when Danny had us playing the short passing and effective game 2 seasons ago.

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I genuinely am worried what this is doing to Danny's health.

Do the right thing Danny and get out before this job destroys you.

Board do the right thing and get a doctor to have a look at him.

In many jobs signs of stress like that would have you getting sent home and to a Doctor as a duty of care.

dont think it is appropriate to be commenting on someone's health in a football forum. It is certainly not helpful . Danny will be hurting because he cares and is giving it his all, but that doesnt mean he is on the point of cracking up. He appears to be in post for the next few games at least, let's just get these over with and see where we are

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dont think it is appropriate to be commenting on someone's health in a football forum. It is certainly not helpful . Danny will be hurting because he cares and is giving it his all, but that doesnt mean he is on the point of cracking up. He appears to be in post for the next few games at least, let's just get these over with and see where we are

Woah, many people comment on this and are, obviously, doctors, so just back off. whistling.gif

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I don't know what you geese expect.

If we budget to finish in the bottom six we will.

If you're no longer happy with simply surviving then it doesn't matter how many times you change the manager, the result will be the same until BOD decide to take a risk.

With the club being up for sale nothing will change until the club changes hands.

In saying that, I don't think we'll be relegated. I think DL is a good young manager and he should be given time

Edited by Lord_Flatcap

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I'm not accepting for one second that we are, and always will be, a yo-yo club destined for relegation - maybe next season, or any other season. The Scottish football landscape has dramatically altered - The Sevco imploded, Hearts imploded, Dunfermline imploded, Dundee imploded... Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee United... FAR from the much bigger clubs with better players than us than they used to be.

We should be looking at being a permanent, established, well-run top flight club. Looking UP and maybe sniffing Europe one season, not every season - no divine right I agree.

We shouldn't be perennial relegation 'almost certainties' and still displaying some sort of inferiority 'lucky to be here' corner shop mentality. We should be as solid looking as Motherwell - looking FAR from relegation fodder. If Motherwell can be a forward thinking, European-eyeing club, why can't we?

Sorry, I'm not accepting that we truly are just here on some sort of borrowed time, lucky to have top flight status for a bit, before the inevitable happens.

To counter that ICT & Ross County have arrived on the scene, one has a similar fanbase to us & the other a sugar daddy.

We're in a vicious circle compared to say Motherwell - finish below them → lower prize money → smaller budget → finish below them! Motherwell haven't always had it easy,It took league reconstruction in the '80's & Falkirk's ground woes 10 years ago to keep them up. Hibs & Dundee Utd. were relegated in the '90's, Aberdeen could well have been if Falkirk had a satisfactory ground in 99/00. Kilmarnock who were promoted in 92/93 would have gone straight back down except they were fortunate enough to play an understrength Oldco team the game after they had clinched the league. Killie won and stayed up on GD - but if circumstances had been different then 20 seasons in the top flight and two Cup wins would have been the stuff of alternate universes.

The Cap'n used to publish a table which showed all the points gained in the top division (see below). More often than not we're gonna be at the wrong end of a 12 team top division and we'd all be a lot happier if we realized this.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premiership/all-time-table/full

Edited by Bud the Baker

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To counter that ICT & Ross County have arrived on the scene, one has a similar fanbase to us & the other a sugar daddy.

We're in a vicious circle compared to say Motherwell - finish below them → lower prize money → smaller budget → finish below them! Motherwell haven't always had it easy,It took league reconstruction in the '80's & Falkirk's ground woes 10 years ago to keep them up. Hibs & Dundee Utd. were relegated in the '90's, Aberdeen could well have been if Falkirk had a satisfactory ground in 99/00. Kilmarnock who were promoted in 92/93 would have gone straight back down except they were fortunate enough to play an understrength Oldco team the game after they had clinched the league. Killie won and stayed up on GD - but if circumstances had been different then 20 seasons in the top flight and two Cup wins would have been the stuff of alternate universes.

The Cap'n used to publish a table which showed all the points gained in the top division (see below). More often than not we're gonna be at the wrong end of a 12 team top division and we'd all be a lot happier if we realized this.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premiership/all-time-table/full

Colin I would say the vast majority of us realise being in the Spl is success just when we are there to finish higher that 11th or 10th is being realistic. In the top six would be magic but to most unrealistic.

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