Do We Deserve Top Tier Football?....

[Wrong Planet]

A friend made a case at the weekend for us moving over and "letting someone else have a go".
His argument is that as a club we are not kicking on at all in the top tier, and therefore it's time to let a potentially
more ambitious club have a shot. I disagreed of course, and he challenged me to make a case for the defense.
I did some digging on Soccerbase and I have to say the findings were pretty sobering. Thought it worth sharing with fellow
buds to see what the collective feeling is. It makes for difficult reading, particularly given the progress we have made OFF the

pitch with the Stadium, Ralston training facilities, no debt, Dome etc. I'm wondering, from a footballing perspective, if my mate maybe has a point....

Premier (Top Tier) League Statistics since winning the 1st DIvision in May 2006....

Manager = Gus McPherson
Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %
2006/2007 11th 36 8 12 18 -20 21.1%
2007/2008* 10th 41 10 11 17 -28 26.3%
2008/2009 11th 37 9 10 19 -19 23.7%
2009/2010 10th 34 7 13 18 -13 18.4%
Totals 148 34 46 72 -80

*2007/2008 = Gretna deducted 10 Points

Manager = Danny Lennon
Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %
2010/2011 11th 33 8 9 21 -24 21.1%
2011/2012 8th 43 9 16 13 -12 23.7%
2012/2013** 11th 41 9 14 15 -13 23.7%
2013/2014*** 11th 28 7 7 18 -22 21.9%
Totals 145 33 46 67 -71

**2012/2013 = No Rangers
***2013/2014 = No Rangers / Hearts deducted 15 points / Games Played To Date = 32

[irvine_buddie]

Some depressing stats there and you could argue that there are teams in the first division who might do better in the top tier than us.

But thats not point, football isn't about money or getting what you deserve. It's a sport, and the table doesn't lie.. if we manage to scrape by with enough points to stay up every season then we've earned our right to be in the top league.

Just like England won't win the world cup just because they believe they are a big country who deserve to, the only way they will is by winning matches.

Same goes the other way, if we go down then we deserve it for not winning enough games.

[pod]

What planet are you on.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Blackandwhitearmy is becoming more bizarre by the day !

[E=Mc2]

Dear Wrong Planet,

In a league of football businesses who practice financial fair play we would never be relegated.

[windae cleaner]

Prefer Bluto's

[Wrong Planet]

Fair points irvine_buddie ('the table doesn't lie.. if we manage to scrape by with enough points to stay up every season then we've earned our right to be in the top league') and E=MC2 ('In a league of football businesses who practice financial fair play we would never be relegated').

Cheers for constructive responses to what I think are quite interesting and thought provoking 8 season Top Tier statistics.

[Drew]

A curious thread, indeed.

I think you could have framed it a bit differently, as I can understand where you are coming from, to a degree, but I'll never accept that we don't deserve to be where we are. Tell that to all the players who have contributed to the cause by scoring vital goals/making last ditch tackles/pulling off critical saves during relegation battles; the coaches and directors who will no doubt have endured sleepless nights ruminating over the consequences of relegation; and the supporters who have turned up to back the team when the chips were down.

I think it is fair to say that we remain (for now) in the top tier on merit. It has been seat of the pants stuff at times, but so it goes.

What I would concede, however, is that if we are relegated at the end of this season, we will have deserved that fate - no question

[Griff]

Great stats , and what would be interesting alongside would be our cup record , and bearing in mind we have reached two cup finals during the course of these stats we have done rather well . Also Danny Lennon's record doesn't,t look too bad either , bearing in mind we are coming on to a run of four home games in our next six

[bingboy]

I think there is a case for saying Saints haven't brought a lot to the SPL.

We are perennial bottom feeders and as a club seem content with that situation, so long as we don't get relegated. Although given our current plight and the inactivity of the BoD regarding it you could maybe delete the relegation clause.

Personally as someone who has been following the team since the late 60's I find the lack of ambition at the club quite depressing but I have reluctantly come to accept that we have accepted our status as a small club and unless we find ways of generating more income we are destined to spend our time in the lower reaches of the SPL or in the Championship.

[spoogy1]

Intresting stats and even more intresting arguement, are we good or even deserving as a football club too stay in the top tier? And my reply is NO for on field performance but yes for off field performance if we could only have a league for off field we as a club would top it every year.

[DLBud]

I think the OP's mate has it wrong.

We absolutely deserve to be where we are right now, which is a perennial bottom six team. We were good enough to get here and have been good enough to stay irrespective of whatever "advantages" some say we've had such as Gretna, No Rangers & Hearts -15 points. Who's to say how things would have panned out if all those circumstances had been different?

By the same token we have never been good enough to break into the top six and that's a disappointment but it's what we deserve as we simply have never been able to put a decent enough run together to match what other clubs our size have managed.

Small fan base, managers, tactics......whatever. We are we are, good or bad, because that's exactly where we deserve to be. Eight seasons of league tables don't lie.

Edited April 1, 2014 by DLBud

[ds10]

I'm not really sure what the basis of the argument is either.

Saints have maintained their place in the SPL fairly, consequently they deserve it.

If we didn't finish 2nd bottom of the SPL, another team would an I'm not sure how that would make the SPL any better.

The stats are really nothing new, and have been discussed numerous times previously.

It is clear though, that there is substantial room for improvement, and that the suggestion progress shown in the first couple of seasons under Danny Lennon has evapourated, particularly this season.

I'm away to reinvent the wheel now, while another Gus vs. Danny debate rages on............

[Magic Monkey]

More navel-gazing on here than an afternoon spent discussing ethics at the BBC.

The beauty of football and league tables is that teams tend to end up exactly where they deserve to be. Of course, that can be distorted occasionally, and sometimes for many years, by financial deviancy (Rangers, Hearts, Motherwell, Livingston, Gretna, etc) but over the piece, teams are positioned pretty much correctly.

[irvine_buddie]

A friend made a case at the weekend for us moving over and "letting someone else have a go".

His argument is that as a club we are not kicking on at all in the top tier, and therefore it's time to let a potentially

more ambitious club have a shot. I disagreed of course, and he challenged me to make a case for the defense.

I did some digging on Soccerbase and I have to say the findings were pretty sobering. Thought it worth sharing with fellow

buds to see what the collective feeling is. It makes for difficult reading, particularly given the progress we have made OFF the

pitch with the Stadium, Ralston training facilities, no debt, Dome etc. I'm wondering, from a footballing perspective, if my mate maybe has a point....

Premier (Top Tier) League Statistics since winning the 1st DIvision in May 2006....

Manager = Gus McPherson

Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %

2006/2007 11th 36 8 12 18 -20 21.1%

2007/2008* 10th 41 10 11 17 -28 26.3%

2008/2009 11th 37 9 10 19 -19 23.7%

2009/2010 10th 34 7 13 18 -13 18.4%

Totals 148 34 46 72 -80

*2007/2008 = Gretna deducted 10 Points

Manager = Danny Lennon

Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %

2010/2011 11th 33 8 9 21 -24 21.1%

2011/2012 8th 43 9 16 13 -12 23.7%

2012/2013** 11th 41 9 14 15 -13 23.7%

2013/2014*** 11th 28 7 7 18 -22 21.9%

Totals 145 33 46 67 -71

**2012/2013 = No Rangers

***2013/2014 = No Rangers / Hearts deducted 15 points / Games Played To Date = 32

Interesting that in 2007/2008 we had our highest win percentage and still finished 10th with 41 points (with Gretna in 12th). Whereas in 2011/2012 we had a lower win percentage but finished with 43 points in 8th place.

Just shows that it important to make yourself hard to beat and the draws can really make a difference, we won only 9 games that year and it was our best season in decades. We have 7 wins so far this season and could realistically expect to get to 9 before the season is out (and still finish 11th) and it will be considered our worst season since the last relegation. Difference is we drew 16 times that season and so far only 7 this season, too many times we have threw away points with late goals or not fought hard enough to hold a team to a draw.

[Stevie88]

A friend made a case at the weekend for us moving over and "letting someone else have a go".

His argument is that as a club we are not kicking on at all in the top tier, and therefore it's time to let a potentially

more ambitious club have a shot. I disagreed of course, and he challenged me to make a case for the defense.

I did some digging on Soccerbase and I have to say the findings were pretty sobering. Thought it worth sharing with fellow

buds to see what the collective feeling is. It makes for difficult reading, particularly given the progress we have made OFF the

pitch with the Stadium, Ralston training facilities, no debt, Dome etc. I'm wondering, from a footballing perspective, if my mate maybe has a point....

Premier (Top Tier) League Statistics since winning the 1st DIvision in May 2006....

Manager = Gus McPherson

Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %

2006/2007 11th 36 8 12 18 -20 21.1%

2007/2008* 10th 41 10 11 17 -28 26.3%

2008/2009 11th 37 9 10 19 -19 23.7%

2009/2010 10th 34 7 13 18 -13 18.4%

Totals 148 34 46 72 -80

*2007/2008 = Gretna deducted 10 Points

Manager = Danny Lennon

Season Position Points Won Drawn Lost Goal Diff Win %

2010/2011 11th 33 8 9 21 -24 21.1%

2011/2012 8th 43 9 16 13 -12 23.7%

2012/2013** 11th 41 9 14 15 -13 23.7%

2013/2014*** 11th 28 7 7 18 -22 21.9%

Totals 145 33 46 67 -71

**2012/2013 = No Rangers

***2013/2014 = No Rangers / Hearts deducted 15 points / Games Played To Date = 32

Is your friend Danny Lennon by any chance?

[faraway saint]

Is your friend Danny Lennon by any chance?

Do you think these stats show Lennon in a great light?

[Big Yards]

Do we deserve top

Flight football? Probably not. We have brought nothing to this league, every other team has had at least one spell in the top half of the division apart from us. I'd put this down to a lack of ambition from the board and running the club like a 1st division outfit and some poor management along the way from both managers. Maybe it is time to let someone else have a go. If we stay up it is sure to just be more of the same next season as our club are quite content to sit 2nd or 3 rd bottom every season as long as we stay up.

[DLBud]

Do we deserve top Flight football? Probably not. We have brought nothing to this league.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

We've played some smashing football at times, participated in some truly excellent games, have a great, vocal, travelling support, a nice tidy stadium for away fans to visit and, most importantly, have survived within our means which, I'm almost certain, several other top flight outfits wish they had done instead of spunking millions chasing top six or European football against some Moldovan part timers.

That doesn't mean we don't deserve to be exactly where we are though.

[saintargyll]

Working within our means

that says it all

plus the club will be around for a long long time while other teams will go to the wall for over spending

we Buddies should be PROUD for what we achieve

"National trophy" anyone?

[Stevie88]

Do you think these stats show Lennon in a great light?

Absolutely not , no.

His friend says... Is it not time we stepped aside and let another team have a go. That's why I asked if his friend was DL as he's making a damn good job at trying to get us relegated.

Was just meant to be tongue and cheeky but obviously not...

[faraway saint]

Absolutely not , no.

His friend says... Is it not time we stepped aside and let another team have a go. That's why I asked if his friend was DL as he's making a damn good job at trying to get us relegated.

Was just meant to be tongue and cheeky but obviously not...

You need to work on that.

Apologies.

[pozbaird]

We deserve top flight football more than some Championship/League 1 cheating basturts I could mention. While we were meeting every stadium criteria going - safety exits, new stands, USH, 10,000 seats - and not spending money on players, Falkirk were allowing Brockville to crumble and were signing Simon Stainrod, Kevin McAllister and others. Dunfermline were acting like Man City wannabees. Dundee thought they were the Harlem Globetrotters. Gretna 'lived the dream', Livingston finished third, won a cup, played in Europe.... all paid for by Carol Vorderman's Ocean Finance.

Now they are 'ambitious' and we should step aside?

Clears throat... Fires up the Shullmobile... FCUK UM!

[Stevie88]

You need to work on that.

Apologies.

Evidentially ;)

[Bart Simpson]

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't step aside for anyone. We are where we are on merit, bad aspects as well as great.

Simply evidence of some people never being happy.