irvine_buddie Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Here's a question for those who are keen to see Danny bagged now (I'm ducking this as I'm ambivalent for the time being) - How would it go if we brought in a new manager just now, but were relegated regardless? Suddenly, the new guy could reasonably be regarded as a least partly culpable for Saints dropping down a league. Not something that can be worn as a badge of honour in any circumstances. He will have been given a handful of games to try to save the season, but would be facing a very different proposition in the 1st Division (sorry, just can't do Championship). There is no way that we could hold onto the likes of Kello, McGinn, and McLean, and we would struggle to replace them like for like in terms of quality. There would be less money available, and the whole consortium shares sale issue would suddenly take on a very different hue. How would we, as supporters, regard this new manager in those circumstances? Would we say, "oh well, he gave it his best shot, time to get behind him in the lower league"? Hands on hearts, is that really our style? If I'm being honest, I now think it is too late to bring in a new manager and realistically expect him to do the business. I'm not sure why any decent coach would throw his hat into the ring just now. He could be a hero by the end of May, but could equally likely be facing a less than thrilled support, and the prospect of the next phase of his career managing a team in a lower league, having effectively led them there. It doesn't seem to me that many high calibre candidates are likely to take a chance on that fate unless we were offering daft money, whch we wouldn't, and shouldn't. Whats the alternative though? We keep Lennon till the end of the season and end up in the 1st division, what kind of manager can we attract then? Or do we keep him and hope he can bring us back up without McGowan, Mcginn, Newton, Mclean etc. Or we keep Lennon till the end of the season and he keeps us up either by winning the playoff or scraping enough points to finish 9/10th. Then we go through it all again next season without the cushion of Hearts being deducted 15 points. And if we stay up again.. then Rangers will most likely be the team to come up the next season. Do you trust DL to turn us into a team who can be top 6 contenders rather than relegation fodder. Edited February 18, 2014 by irvine_buddie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjerseybuddie Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Wee tommy craigs record as an assistant is not particularly good either( his name came up as tommy drains on predictive text!) we have two likeable guys in charge who between them can't get the right blend on the pitch with a host of talented players to choose from. It's obvious Danny sees himself as some sort of psychological genius, changing the team every week trying to fox the other team when all he does is fox his own players. He should be playing a settled formation and let the other teams worry about us for a change. It turned for me when he changed a winning team which must affect the confidence of a player when he gets dropped from a team which has won the previous week. Many are asking who we could get. Who knows? But sadly danny and tommy don't appear to have the answers to our current situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Is there anything more shameful than a topic with this title posted on what is puported to be a St Mirren fans forum..? I get people are dissapointed... hell I've learned to live with that for forty odd years without resulting to this type of mentality They got what they wished for at Blackburn... in fact they've had it twice again since! People suggesting Ian Murray at Dumbarton would be a better replacement based on what..? sixth place in the championship, never managed at premiership level, narrowly avoided relegation last season (the other half of his one season in management).... Where did Danny come from..? ermm let me think oh yeah he took Cowdenbeith to two successive promotions before joining us, he actually won leagues! how the hell is Ian Murray looking better for us? it is a disgrace we have a topic with this title on here, and it lessens any arguement that people who believe we would be better served without Danny might have... lets see the boo-boys spell out the job skills, core competencies, behaviours and bench marks for what a succesfull St Mirren manager would look like given the budget we have availbale to pay them, their backroom team and the squad at their disposal. Anyone thought about the common sense acquisitions of Wylde, DD and Magennis to take the heat off a couple of very young full backs struggling to maintain their consistency in the first season in their lives where most everyone they play against has been playing at a higher level than them for some time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Whats the alternative though? We keep Lennon till the end of the season and end up in the 1st division, what kind of manager can we attract then? Or do we keep him and hope he can bring us back up without McGowan, Mcginn, Newton, Mclean etc. Or we keep Lennon till the end of the season and he keeps us up either by winning the playoff or scraping enough points to finish 9/10th. Then we go through it all again next season without the cushion of Hearts being deducted 15 points. And if we stay up again.. then Rangers will most likely be the team to come up the next season. Do you trust DL to turn us into a team who can be top 6 contenders rather than relegation fodder. Fair enough, but again, I wonder what calibre of manager would be willing to take the job just now. This is the big question - ie: who could we bring in that would be a marked improvement. There's every chance such a candidate exists, but the later we leave it (And I now fear it might be too late), the less attractive an option we would be considered. Even guys like Murray and Hartley woud be taking a chance of ending up back in the league they had just come from. You've also got to factor in the time it would reasonably take for a new manager to get to grips with the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 On the subject of the games before the split I think we will do quite well. When you are on a bad run you can never see where the next point is coming from and you get the decisions going against you as well into the bargain (in the last handful of games we have lost 2 different games as a result of conceding penalties which were both outside the box - that's gotta be a first!). A bad run comes to an end when a win materialises out of nowhere, often with a flukey goal or crazy refereeing decision finally going our way, and some times the results pick up before performances do. I think that in te last few games against Celtic, Dundee United and Aberdeen we have lost narrowly to 3 of the best teams in the league and we have also gone from having a thin squad in January to a situation where in the next week or two the problem with our bench will move from trying to fill it to who to leave in the stand. I wouldn't be surprised if we become the first team to beat Celtic in the league this season in a rare game where everything clicks for us and all the players turn up and play as a unit and think we often play well against teams like Motherwell and Dundee United who are consistently better than us over a season but in head to head games the matches can be quite tight. As far as getting the best out of the top 6 quality squad goes, I still haven't had an advance on 5 St Mirren players who would get a regular starting place in a top 6 team. Maybe if it was a five a side league and we had no injuries or suspensions over a season it would be reasonable to judge DL on whether we made top 6 or not. The expectation seems to be he should get us into the top 6 at least some years while only 5 of his starting XI are good enough to play there and work wonders with the other 6 to fool them into thinking they are good enough to play in the top 6. We have never finished in the top 6 in all the time the SPL has been around. We will finish anywhere from 8th - 11th this season, I can't believe that when 8th is our highest SPL finish ever that people are calling for DL's head when he could easily equal that this year especially as we now have a lot of strength in depth from midfield to attack returning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ McG Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Fair enough, but again, I wonder what calibre of manager would be willing to take the job just now. This is the big question - ie: who could we bring in that would be a marked improvement. There's every chance such a candidate exists, but the later we leave it (And I now fear it might be too late), the less attractive an option we would be considered. Even guys like Murray and Hartley woud be taking a chance of ending up back in the league they had just come from. You've also got to factor in the time it would reasonably take for a new manager to get to grips with the job. Drew I reckon st.mirren would be an attractive job to quite a few managers, you may be suprised. Nice new stadium, own training facilities, decent squad there with some very good players? I reckon quite a few managers would fancy it. Do you honestly believe we couldn't attract a better manager than Lennon who could come in and improve our current league form? I don't think our league form could get much worse to be honest, it's dreadful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Drew I reckon st.mirren would be an attractive job to quite a few managers, you may be suprised. Nice new stadium, own training facilities, decent squad there with some very good players? I reckon quite a few managers would fancy it. Do you honestly believe we couldn't attract a better manager than Lennon who could come in and improve our current league form? I don't think our league form could get much worse to be honest, it's dreadful. Aye, but many of those very good players wouldn'y be here if we were in the 1st Division. It would be expecting a lot of any new manager to come in, settle into the job, steady the ship, and guide us to safety. For me, that must make the job less attractive than if the new manager was coming in at the start of a season in the top flight, with a few bob to spend, and a decent shot at success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg123 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Aye, but many of those very good players wouldn'y be here if we were in the 1st Division. It would be expecting a lot of any new manager to come in, settle into the job, steady the ship, and guide us to safety. For me, that must make the job less attractive than if the new manager was coming in at the start of a season in the top flight, with a few bob to spend, and a decent shot at success. Hence why we need a new manager. We will be otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Whats the alternative though? We keep Lennon till the end of the season and end up in the 1st division, what kind of manager can we attract then? Or do we keep him and hope he can bring us back up without McGowan, Mcginn, Newton, Mclean etc. Or we keep Lennon till the end of the season and he keeps us up either by winning the playoff or scraping enough points to finish 9/10th. Then we go through it all again next season without the cushion of Hearts being deducted 15 points. And if we stay up again.. then Rangers will most likely be the team to come up the next season. Do you trust DL to turn us into a team who can be top 6 contenders rather than relegation fodder. the 15 point cushion over hearts will be meaningless to every club in the country bar the club that ends up in the play-off spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Hence why we need a new manager. We will be otherwise. And could easily still be. What was the name of the Irish guy who was drafted in to save Dunfermline from the drop - the rubber duck year? Granted, it has perhaps worked for some clubs, but I wonder how many times a manager has been brought in to save a club with only a handful of games to go, and has been successful in doing this. Like most jobs, you have to imagine that a football manager needs time to get into the swing of things. Edited February 18, 2014 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Who are these 'better' managers that we could attract??? How about some names and achievements so far that underpin why they are 'Better'... here's your starter for ten: Ian Murray - (Achievements) Sixth in the championship (at this point... remember teams can go up as well as down) Better??? ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg123 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 And could easily still be. What was the name of the Irish guy who was drafted in to save Dunfermline from the drop - the rubber duck year? Granted, it has perhaps worked for some clubs, but I wonder how many times a manager has been brought in to save a club with only a handful of games to go, and has been successful in doing this. Like most jobs, you have to imagine that a football manager needs time to get into the swing of things. What people dont seem to get is that clubs bring in new managers to help get out of sticky situations like the threat of relegation. The new chap can only help avoid relegation. Sticking with same manager only prolongs the problem longer as it is painfully clear this manager is not getting us out this situation. If you look at the EPL. All clubs that have changed manager were in trouble, 1 club has moved away from trouble in Palace. Clubs that have not improved have stayed in same positions so nothing lost really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Who are these 'better' managers that we could attract??? How about some names and achievements so far that underpin why they are 'Better'... here's your starter for ten: Ian Murray - (Achievements) Sixth in the championship (at this point... remember teams can go up as well as down) Better??? ffs Yes , yes , Murray's team are in the top six and are over achieving , he's done well at that level and he'll get a bigger gig soon . TBH , I think he's worth a go if we're looking for another reasonably cheap option. That said , if there's new owners coming in this summer , they've probably already identified their man ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 What people dont seem to get is that clubs bring in new managers to help get out of sticky situations like the threat of relegation. The new chap can only help avoid relegation. Sticking with same manager only prolongs the problem longer as it is painfully clear this manager is not getting us out this situation. If you look at the EPL. All clubs that have changed manager were in trouble, 1 club has moved away from trouble in Palace. Clubs that have not improved have stayed in same positions so nothing lost really. Take a chance on a new manager who may be untried in the to league and with little experience? Or stick with a manager who has kept us up in his previous three seasons, one of which was our best finish in the league for over 25 years, and who won us a cup last season (I know it's frowned upon to mention that). Why would we take the chance on changing the manager, when the current manager has us in 9th place at the moment? If we were to change our manager and went down, we'd deserve everything we get. I'm afraid the anti-Lennon agenda just doesn't make sense when you look at the facts, rather than the manager's personality/interviews/fact that he doesn't come out of the dugout very often, although I'm aware that these variables are in themselves of great importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'm afraid the anti-Lennon agenda just doesn't make sense when you look at the facts, rather than the manager's personality/interviews/fact that he doesn't come out of the dugout very often, although I'm aware that these variables are in themselves of great importance. I'm looking at the facts , we've won 8 games in 13 months ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'm looking at the facts , we've won 8 games in 13 months ! A fact that, in isolation, doesn't mean much. Only when compared to other teams does it matter. More important is how many we've won this season, We've won six this season. Not great, but better than two other teams and the same as another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ McG Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Take a chance on a new manager who may be untried in the to league and with little experience? Or stick with a manager who has kept us up in his previous three seasons, one of which was our best finish in the league for over 25 years, and who won us a cup last season (I know it's frowned upon to mention that). Why would we take the chance on changing the manager, when the current manager has us in 9th place at the moment? If we were to change our manager and went down, we'd deserve everything we get. I'm afraid the anti-Lennon agenda just doesn't make sense when you look at the facts, rather than the manager's personality/interviews/fact that he doesn't come out of the dugout very often, although I'm aware that these variables are in themselves of great importance. How doesn't it make sense? Are you quite happy with our 8 home league wins since the cup final last march? We have gave the manager chance after chance to turn it around, the football on show is dreadful, more and more fans are not bothering to go on a Saturday because they are scunnered with Lennon and the shite we are getting served up, it's utter garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg123 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Take a chance on a new manager who may be untried in the to league and with little experience? Or stick with a manager who has kept us up in his previous three seasons, one of which was our best finish in the league for over 25 years, and who won us a cup last season (I know it's frowned upon to mention that). Why would we take the chance on changing the manager, when the current manager has us in 9th place at the moment? If we were to change our manager and went down, we'd deserve everything we get. I'm afraid the anti-Lennon agenda just doesn't make sense when you look at the facts, rather than the manager's personality/interviews/fact that he doesn't come out of the dugout very often, although I'm aware that these variables are in themselves of great importance. Look, i know that it was great to win the cup lasy year but lets put it into perspective, Lots of diddy teams have won this league cup in recent years like Kilmarnock, Livingston, Raith rovers and Hibs. Law of averages you are due to win one soon enough. I put it too you, If we had faced either Aberdeen-Dundee unt-Hibs-Inverness-Motherwell or the Fakes, do you think we would have won the Final? In my mind we were lucky to come up against a team who were just as bad as us last season and who failed to take all there early chances coz they should have been 3 up at 1 point. That cup win in my mind saved his job last season as that was piss poor also. This season has only continued the cycle of mediocraty. Needs must an all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 How doesn't it make sense? Are you quite happy with our 8 home league wins since the cup final last march? We have gave the manager chance after chance to turn it around, the football on show is dreadful, more and more fans are not bothering to go on a Saturday because they are scunnered with Lennon and the shite we are getting served up, it's utter garbage. I think all the information is in my post. The current manager has kept us up three years in a row, one being our best finish in 25 years. Unless we're getting a proven manager in his place, it'd be foolish to change managers. It's not that difficult to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Look, i know that it was great to win the cup lasy year but lets put it into perspective, Lots of diddy teams have won this league cup in recent years like Kilmarnock, Livingston, Raith rovers and Hibs. Law of averages you are due to win one soon enough. I put it too you, If we had faced either Aberdeen-Dundee unt-Hibs-Inverness-Motherwell or the Fakes, do you think we would have won the Final? In my mind we were lucky to come up against a team who were just as bad as us last season and who failed to take all there early chances coz they should have been 3 up at 1 point. That cup win in my mind saved his job last season as that was piss poor also. This season has only continued the cycle of mediocraty. Needs must an all. Outstanding - you've managed to write off our cup win as a statistical blip, therefore removing any credit from all involved. That is some achievement. We beat Aberdeen and Celtic on the way to the final - do we not get any credit unless we beat the entire top 6 en route? The audacity of some posters is astounding. Last season league wise was poor - this season we're 9th. Our best finish in 25 years was 8th. Strikes me as harsh to be calling for the manager's name at this stage. Even without mentioning the unmentionable. Edited February 20, 2014 by Soctty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg123 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Outstanding - you've managed to write of our cup win as a statistical blip, therefore removing any credit from all involved. That is some achievement. We beat Aberdeen and Celtic on the way to the final - do we not get any credit unless we beat the entire top 6 en route? The audacity of some posters is astounding. Last season league wise was poor - this season we're 9th. Our best finish in 25 years was 8th. Strikes me as harsh to be calling for the manager's name at this stage. Even without mentioning the unmentionable. Well we did beat Aberdeen b4 they went on to bag there manager, then we beat ceptic at a ground were almost everyone seems to beat them, then a team that was as bad as us in the final. While i rejoiced in the win just as much as any supporter, we did get lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irvine_buddie Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Fair enough, but again, I wonder what calibre of manager would be willing to take the job just now. This is the big question - ie: who could we bring in that would be a marked improvement. There's every chance such a candidate exists, but the later we leave it (And I now fear it might be too late), the less attractive an option we would be considered. Even guys like Murray and Hartley woud be taking a chance of ending up back in the league they had just come from. You've also got to factor in the time it would reasonably take for a new manager to get to grips with the job. I agree that there might not be anyone better to bring in, if there is no-one we can get then fine keep Lennon but surely there is someone out there. And if someone of Ian Murray's calibre is the only option then I say stick with the devil you know rather than gamble on an unknown manager who has a year of relative success. the 15 point cushion over hearts will be meaningless to every club in the country bar the club that ends up in the play-off spot Not sure I get your point? Without the -15 points we would be only 3 points clear of the automatic relegation spot never mind the playoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Well we did beat Aberdeen b4 they went on to bag there manager, then we beat ceptic at a ground were almost everyone seems to beat them, then a team that was as bad as us in the final. While i rejoiced in the win just as much as any supporter, we did get lucky. Brilliant - removed all credit once again. Are you ever happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I should point out I am not saying Lennon should stay beyond the season end, but he should get that time, as he's kept us up the last three years without much bother. The summer will be the time for decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ McG Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I should point out I am not saying Lennon should stay beyond the season end, but he should get that time, as he's kept us up the last three years without much bother. The summer will be the time for decisions. He's kept us up the last 3 years without much bother? We get you are a happy clapper but to say he has kept us up without much bother is a bit too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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