Formation and tactics.

[Sonny]

I wasn't at Livingston but have been at all other games.

In all these games we started with a 4-4-2 formation. We played with two wingers who sat on the touchline at the halfway line waiting for the ball leaving two players in midfield. In every game the keeper and the back four played the ball out via an up-and-under hoof up the park to two strikers who had their back to goal and stood next to each other. In all these games the two fullbacks hardly crossed the half-way line. There was little running off the ball and little playing the ball on the deck. The only victory was at home to Edinburgh City who are currently sitting bottom of Division two.

Now if that formation and tactics has been played for eight consecutive games then I reckon I could assume that these are the tactics and formation that the manager has laid down otherwise I would assume that players that are not obeying instructions would be dropped.

IT AIN'T WORKING MR RAE.

The players look scared to me to either take responsibility or do something different from the straitjacket formation they are being asked to execute. There is no leadership nor confidence and the players look as pissed off as the fans. This is some of the worst 'football' I have ever watched.

I think we still have a nucleus of good players but the diabolical formation and tactics are so easy to play against that I do not see any results coming our way soon. Of course players must take their share of responsibility but if you are being told to play a certain way (that is not working) and get bawled out in public when you do not then the only person to blame is the manager.

 

[Drew]

Can't disagree with anything there.

I'm not calling for Rae's head just now, but I agree that he is largely culpable. I didn't see so much hoofing of the ball today, and I thought we pressed a bit better, but it was to little or no effect because there was no out ball whatsoever.  That points to a huge deficiency in the midfield, characterised, for example, by Naismith constantly pass the ball back to Baird (he played an almost identical pass at least 4 times in the second half alone).

Last season, Rae seemed content to make us hard to beat in the first instance, and we were then able to exploit space on occasions as teams became frustrated and fragmented. This year, I'm not at all sure what he is trying to achieve. Is he?

[Stuart Dickson]

34 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I wasn't at Livingston but have been at all other games.

In all these games we started with a 4-4-2 formation. We played with two wingers who sat on the touchline at the halfway line waiting for the ball leaving two players in midfield. In every game the keeper and the back four played the ball out via an up-and-under hoof up the park to two strikers who had their back to goal and stood next to each other. In all these games the two fullbacks hardly crossed the half-way line. There was little running off the ball and little playing the ball on the deck. The only victory was at home to Edinburgh City who are currently sitting bottom of Division two.

Now if that formation and tactics has been played for eight consecutive games then I reckon I could assume that these are the tactics and formation that the manager has laid down otherwise I would assume that players that are not obeying instructions would be dropped.

IT AIN'T WORKING MR RAE.

The players look scared to me to either take responsibility or do something different from the straitjacket formation they are being asked to execute. There is no leadership nor confidence and the players look as pissed off as the fans. This is some of the worst 'football' I have ever watched.

I think we still have a nucleus of good players but the diabolical formation and tactics are so easy to play against that I do not see any results coming our way soon. Of course players must take their share of responsibility but if you are being told to play a certain way (that is not working) and get bawled out in public when you do not then the only person to blame is the manager.

 

It was exactly the same at Livingston Sonny. I said after that match it was like watching players on a Fusball table, with only Morgan seemingly able to move from his position. 

[Kemp]

It is a complete shambles, I don't think Raith or Hibs players could properly believe how easy their job was being made for them.

It is a very easy set up to play against. Every team is also aware Irvine is utterly hopeless and are battering us down that wing, while the midfield just stands and watches.

Rae must be fired on Monday, to play such  primitive tactics is gross incompetence.

[zurich_allan]

I wasn't at Livingston but have been at all other games.

In all these games we started with a 4-4-2 formation. We played with two wingers who sat on the touchline at the halfway line waiting for the ball leaving two players in midfield. In every game the keeper and the back four played the ball out via an up-and-under hoof up the park to two strikers who had their back to goal and stood next to each other. In all these games the two fullbacks hardly crossed the half-way line. There was little running off the ball and little playing the ball on the deck. The only victory was at home to Edinburgh City who are currently sitting bottom of Division two.

Now if that formation and tactics has been played for eight consecutive games then I reckon I could assume that these are the tactics and formation that the manager has laid down otherwise I would assume that players that are not obeying instructions would be dropped.

IT AIN'T WORKING MR RAE.

The players look scared to me to either take responsibility or do something different from the straitjacket formation they are being asked to execute. There is no leadership nor confidence and the players look as pissed off as the fans. This is some of the worst 'football' I have ever watched.

I think we still have a nucleus of good players but the diabolical formation and tactics are so easy to play against that I do not see any results coming our way soon. Of course players must take their share of responsibility but if you are being told to play a certain way (that is not working) and get bawled out in public when you do not then the only person to blame is the manager.

 

Spot on. I would add one thing though. On the evidence of the games so far, the only ball winner in the squad is Irvine. No other player on the pitch is capable of winning a tackle, or be even more brutal even MAKING a tackle. Clarkson is the only other one that comes close. We NEED a ball winner of the Goodwin mould in midfield otherwise the ball is going to bypass them all season long.

[aldo_j]

If you play 4-4-2 you at least need to get the fullbacks to push up. We don't. That leaves a massive gap middle to front which the opposition exploits.

 

make no mistake. If Hibs pushed 10% more we would have lost five or six.

[gazmc83]

Agree our formation is far too predictable and extremely easy to play against , hibs didn't even have to get out of 2nd gear today , the two wingers didn't get involved and the two central midfielders were exposed and far too easily overrun , we need a ball winner in their ! I read in the PDE that Alex is looking to get a few out on loan ( I'm assuming Gordon will be one of them ) so he can bring someone in , fingers crossed he can act quickly ...

[Hendo]

The player Rae brought in to win the ball, Hutton, looks very nervous every time he gets the ball, he doesn't like being pressed so that's what teams do and more often than not win the ball back. That is what can lead to hoofball. Hutton should be the pivot in the team, keeping things moving, but his shortcomings mean other players are forced to play it long, meaning our best players like mallan and Morgan don't get the ball enough and can't create chances. A defensive midfielder who does his job would go a long way to improving things.

 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The player Rae brought in to win the ball, Hutton, looks very nervous every time he gets the ball, he doesn't like being pressed so that's what teams do and more often than not win the ball back. That is what can lead to hoofball. Hutton should be the pivot in the team, keeping things moving, but his shortcomings mean other players are forced to play it long, meaning our best players like mallan and Morgan don't get the ball enough and can't create chances. A defensive midfielder who does his job would go a long way to improving things.

Not sure it's completely down to Hutton in that respect.
If he was playing in a holding role, in theory he would have more time in possession allowing him to be the pivot. Playing him side by side with maldon doesn't work for either player.
The lack if movement and fitness throughout the squad exacerbates this.

[Hendo]

maybe a diamond formation in midfield might be a better option, what's worrying is Rae doesn't seem to have even considered this.

[stlucifer]

No matter the formation we still lack that one important player. A ball winning, holding midfield general who would stamp his authority on the game.

[Sonny]

12 hours ago, stlucifer said:

No matter the formation we still lack that one important player. A ball winning, holding midfield general who would stamp his authority on the game.

Not disagreeing we need a ball winner but if the keepr gave the ball to someone in the back four who then passed it forwards to midfield or a striker then we retain possession unlike now where we constantly give the ball away via a long punt. I am not talking about 'tippie tappie shite' but about passing a ball forward instead of hoofball. It would also encourage more movement from everyone concerned instead of hanging around waiting for a ball to land.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Players in their natural positions would be a start. Naismith looks shot confidence wise so get irivine to RB and get Stewart in at LB.  If we must persist with two wide men (don't think we can afford two wide players and 2 strikers when we win so little ball) but at least play them on their natural side.  We need Quinn back and get him in beside Hutton. If McKenzie is ready then he can play - drop either CB they are as poor as each other.  I don't think what appears a pretty rigid 4-4-2 suits us at all. I'd prefer to see the width coming from the full backs and the midfield beefed up.  Probably better with one up and either Mallan or Hardie playing behind the striker.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Ayrshire Saints

[Bud the Baker]

Perhaps Rae's been unlucky with injuries but after hearing the line-up for Saturday's game did anyone expect anything other than what happened?

He had a week to come up with a Plan B - I'd have been happy to see us try and shitfest the game starting either Gordon or Clarkson in midfield instead of one of the strikers, probably Shankland.

********

On a different note if you're gonna play the long ball game then you have to understand it's not all about the target man winning the first ball, it's as much about having supporting players able to pick up loose balls in the opposition half and run at goal or challenge defenders before they get a chance to properly control the ball - both Lewis & Walsh seem fairly pacy and if they were allowed to come off the touchline then it could be an effective tactic

[Edinbuddie]

Hutton sat in front of the back 4 at QoS last season, and had room and time to play passes.

At Livingston in the LC, Hutton came on and played right midfield. He wasn't fast or flashy but didn't give the ball away, and gave Naismith the opportunity to overlap and attack, with Hutton providing a bit of security behind him.

 

 

[ulysses]

It's vital that Quinn comes back soon, or we get another holding mid in. Mallan is not a box to box midfielder, we need to get him up behind the striker. Playing two forwards isn't working, so let's go back to packing he midfield, and then we can bring on a striker or two later in the game. It would also allow Walsh and Morgan to play with a bit more freedom, as there will be two sitting midfielders to track back.

[djchapsticks]

Unfortunately our problems go a lot deeper than just a holding midfielder. Quinn or a new face in that position can't fix the glaring holes in that team. We've got issues almost everywhere. 

I have been ultra critical of Hutton but I think it's obvious that he's playing exactly where he's told to and it doesn't suit him whatsoever. He looks nervous and cumbersome in his current role. 

What IS needed, as attested to in the original post, is a change of gameplan. It takes a bigger man to put his hands up and admit that his vision he had in his mind of how we'd play isn't working.

[melmac]

This is an entertainment business. What we need is a change of manager, someone with an inkling on how to set a team up to win and entertain. Rae ain't (in my opinion) a manager, never was and never will be.

[Ronnie]

Having been out in car alot at night between 6&8 regular heard Alex on Radio Clyde before and after his appointment.

Ever since he got the job when he is on they give him 5 mins talking about Saints before doing the usual phone in, almost every time I have heard him speak he repeats the same stuff over and over again 4-4-2 this 4-4-2 that he just seems totally set on playing this way whether it works or not.

Luckily for me my games are few and far between but on here before Morton game I predicted a 5-8 place finish after watching that 90 minutes v Morton to my mates changed that prediction to 8-10 place finish.

Someone called it perfectly on another thread he got a few good results against the Alloa and Livingston of the league last season unfortunately only Ayr United seem to be worse than us this season and these results won't happen this time round.

Definitely heading for a managerial change mid season 3 seasons in a row.

[Froggie]

Never ceases to amaze that Radio Clyde bring on so-called "experts" like Alex Rae to pontificate about football, whilst at the same time his team couldn't play football  to save themselves. His inarticulate ramblings defy belief.

In fact I would go as far as to say that he only got the Saints job on the strength of his appearances on radio, and because he said he has some good contacts. A lot of good those have done, considering the duds he has signed.

The sooner Rae is gone, the better, it may still give someone else the chance to salvage an already dismal looking season. And before some bright spark asks who I would choose as manager, I have no say in the matter. Just as I have no say, other than criticism, in whether Rae and his hand picked sidekick are to walk the plank.

[STGBuddy]

First time back for a while and to be honest , I felt there was a total lack of pace throughout the team and we looked totally predictable ... Worrying 

[shull]

8 minutes ago, STGBuddy said:

First time back for a while and to be honest , I felt there was a total lack of pace throughout the team and we looked totally predictable ... Worrying 

Strange that, we have played brilliantly while you have been away. 

Welcome 

[STGBuddy]

50 minutes ago, shull said:

Strange that, we have played brilliantly while you have been away. 

Welcome 

If only that were the case !!  ;o)

 

[saltcoatsbuddie]

8 points behind league leaders after 3 games ,alarming frailties ,no tactics ,clueless , who IS the manager  ,craig ? murray? rae? same pish different season