Next St Mirren Manager

[Drew]

Whilst it would be great if we went for Hartley or Murray last summer, who's to say Thompson or Teale won't be the next batch of talented up and coming managers in Scotland. They only way to find out is by giving these guys a chance, in this instance Teale.

I'd argue that there is an important disctinction to be made between being up and coming and being launched in at the deep end.

To me, up and coming suggests a manager (such as Hartley, and, to a lesser degree, Neil) who has cut his teeth in a lower league (or two). On the flip side, cutting your teeth with a SPFL top league club that is thoroughly mired in the shite at the half-way point of the season is a hell of a tall order for an inexperienced coach/manager.

Ideally, we need someone who can salvage our season and keep us in the top league. Something tells me that Butcher might be the man for that job. Like every other appointment, it would be a gamble, but I think he has some of the attributes required. Give him the gig for the remainder of the season and take it from there.

The other option - in terms of my current thinking, and probably my preference - would be to bring in Ian Murray if the BoD could find the £10K compensation required. There is a young manager who has arguably had Dumbarton punching above their weight and has certainly revitalised the club during his tenure. There probably wouldn't be so much pressure for him to save the season than if the likes of Butcher or Calderwood were brought in, and if we did go down, he would have the opportunity to build from within.

The players need a manager, not a mate, and I think this is a strong reason for bringing someone in who doesn't have any baggage at the club.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Drew

[Callum Gilhooley]

I'd argue that there is an important disctinction to be made between being up and coming and being launched in at the deep end.

To me, up and coming suggests a manager (such as Hartley, and, to a lesser degree, Neil) who has cut his teeth in a lower league (or two). On the flip side, cutting your teeth with a SPFL club that is thoroughly mired in the shite at the half-way point of the season is a hell of a tall order for an inexperienced coach/manager.

Ideally, we need someone who can salvage our season and keep us in the top league. Something tells me that Butcher might be the man for that job. Like every other appointment, it would be a gamble, but I think he has some of the attributes required. Give him the gig for the remainder of the season and take it from there.

The other option - in terms of my current thinking, and probably my preference - would be to bring in Ian Murray if the BoD could find the £10K compensation required. There is a young manager who has arguably had Dumbarton punching above their weight and has certainly revitalised the club during his tenure. There probably wouldn't be so much pressure for him to save the season than if the likes of Butcher or Calderwood were brought in, and if we did go down, he would have the opportunity to build from within.

The players need a manager, not a mate, and I think this is a strong reason for bringing someone in who doesn't have any baggage at the club.

Agree.

[Murray7]

I vote Tangoman.

[div]

not sure where you are getting that from div

the youth academy has been there for more than 10 years and longwell has been there all that time

the youth academy didn't just start with the new training ground!

to suggest its only been here 4 years is absurd!

10 years, no transfer fees and a bunch of kids who have us 2nd bottom of the league

its been an unmitigated disaster and instead of happy clapping it we should be calling for change

I didnt say it started with the training ground but it's equally as absurd to ignore the difference the facilities have made to our ability to attract better youngsters to the club, hence why I used the term "proper".

You seem to have a real problem with David Longwell, perhaps you know more about the setup than I do, or perhaps you are an angry parent or ex-employee with an axe to grind, but I think there is a lot of good stuff going on there based on the results I see and the kids breaking through into the first team.

[stlucifer]

Why is anyone even mentioning Barry Smith for real?

His record in the second tier reads Played 29- won 6 and are second bottom of the pile below us.

IF we were in a more stable position I wouldn't feel to concerned but we need someone who will be more likely to turn our fortunes around.

Wrong man-wrong time.

As for Calderwood. He would want funds to strengthen and that is something we are bereft of.

While I am not overly keen on Butcher he at least has, with the help of his assistant at ICT, (who I was informed by an ICT supporter was the guy identifying the lower English league players), managed to find a couple of gems willing to play in this backwater of a league.

[shull]

I'd argue that there is an important disctinction to be made between being up and coming and being launched in at the deep end.

To me, up and coming suggests a manager (such as Hartley, and, to a lesser degree, Neil) who has cut his teeth in a lower league (or two). On the flip side, cutting your teeth with a SPFL club that is thoroughly mired in the shite at the half-way point of the season is a hell of a tall order for an inexperienced coach/manager.

Ideally, we need someone who can salvage our season and keep us in the top league. Something tells me that Butcher might be the man for that job. Like every other appointment, it would be a gamble, but I think he has some of the attributes required. Give him the gig for the remainder of the season and take it from there.

The other option - in terms of my current thinking, and probably my preference - would be to bring in Ian Murray if the BoD could find the £10K compensation required. There is a young manager who has arguably had Dumbarton punching above their weight and has certainly revitalised the club during his tenure. There probably wouldn't be so much pressure for him to save the season than if the likes of Butcher or Calderwood were brought in, and if we did go down, he would have the opportunity to build from within.

The players need a manager, not a mate, and I think this is a strong reason for bringing someone in who doesn't have any baggage at the club.

Welcome back ffs!

[Callum Gilhooley]

I didnt say it started with the training ground but it's equally as absurd to ignore the difference the facilities have made to our ability to attract better youngsters to the club, hence why I used the term "proper".

You seem to have a real problem with Davind Longwell, perhaps you know more about the setup than I do, or perhaps you are an angry parent or ex-employee with an axe to grind, but I think there is a lot of good stuff going on there based on the results I see and the kids breaking through into the first team.

I think David must have run over his cat.

[irvine_buddie]

There's a good story in the sun today about David Longwell, don't understand why some people are so against him, The argument about him not bringing through any players who have been sold for a transfer fee (yet) is ridiculous. I think Teale and Longwell should be given sufficient time to stake a claim for the permanent job, at least the next 4 or 5 games and if they do well then give them till the end of the season on a short term contract.

[Sergie's no1 fan]

Yep that's a fair point as well Drew.

Murray was thrown in at the deep end with Dumbarton and has worked miracles ever since. They were expected to be relegated though and are a high end league one team, pretty much. Different for us, we are an established Prem team now and without the revenue that brings we would need to make major cut backs and sell our best players .

[JJ McG]

Welcome back ffs!

He just burst on to the scene.

[Tony Fitzy]

Me too. It amazes me that fans think that because one internal appointment never worked, that no internal appointment will ever work again. I think Teale and Longwell could be an excellent partnership.

Calderwood would be awful.

A dinosaur who can't get work here anymore for a reason. Last seen walking out some Dutch second tier club because they sold a couple of players. Ask Ryan O'Leary about him. A promising young player who had been recognised at international level, and then retired from football at a young age because Jimmy Calderwood was bullying him about his depression.

There's a reason he isn't very popular at any of his previous clubs. No thanks.

I think internal appointments are fine when things are going well and your manager leaves for bigger things. Makes total sense to appoint from within, so as not to upset things too much. Quite simply just carry on where the old manager left off.

However, when things are going bad and you have to sack the manager, it's definitely a better idea to bring someone in who can deliver some fresh approaches.

You have to remember that number two's and coaches do have a considerable influence on a manager. They put forward many idea's and implement new training methods etc etc. So they definitely are part of the problem (as we found out with TC) or success that the club has.

There is no way the BOD will make that same mistake twice in succession.

I am 100% confident that the BOD will get this right and we will have someone in from outwith the club, who has plenty experience and a decent level of success.

I am fairly confident that one of the following will be our new manager and I would be happy with any of them.

Terry Butcher

Billy Stark

Jimmy Calderwood

Steve Lomas

I know my Jimmy Calderwood prediction will get slaughtered by some, but the guy has a great record. The only reason some on here don't like him is because he used to wind us right up when he was manager of Dunfermline.

[stlucifer]

There's a good story in the sun today about David Longwell, don't understand why some people are so against him, The argument about him not bringing through any players who have been sold for a transfer fee (yet) is ridiculous. I think Teale and Longwell should be given sufficient time to stake a claim for the permanent job, at least the next 4 or 5 games and if they do well then give them till the end of the season on a short term contract.

I don't have anything against David as such.

I would love for him, and Teale, to walk into the job and set the heather on fire. I just doubt they will.

Edited December 11, 2014 by stlucifer

[Murray7]

Lomas can f**k off.

Woeful manager.

[Murray7]

Kluivert

[pod]

Bring back the Jesus looking guy who brought Isma to the Club and left for Northern Ireland Assistants job? Northern Ireland are flying and maybe he can convince Isma to come back? 10 goals between Jan and May might be the difference in staying up.

God

[Wrong Planet]

There's a good story in the sun today about David Longwell, don't understand why some people are so against him, The argument about him not bringing through any players who have been sold for a transfer fee (yet) is ridiculous. I think Teale and Longwell should be given sufficient time to stake a claim for the permanent job, at least the next 4 or 5 games and if they do well then give them till the end of the season on a short term contract.

Not singling you out Irvine, but 'time' is what we don't have.

There is a lot of the discussion on this thread from some, simply imho, who are looking at our current situation with an idealised view. I would normally be in full support of looking at the merits of in-house options of the likes of Teale, Thommo, and Longwell. I would also pit them against up and coming managers who are showing at least steady progress in the lower divisions. All standard stuff and, lets be honest, that's exactly the pond in which we fish.

However this is a very specific scenario we have here. 8 points from the first 15 games leaves us facing relegation. Looking at past history tells us that we will likely required something in the region of 38 points to be safe, vis, we probably need to achieve 30 points from the remaining 23 games. Just to underline this....

Under TC this squad managed 8 points from the available 45. That means we took 17.8% of the points on offer.

The probable requirement is for us to take 30 from the remaining 69. That means we need to take 43.5% of the points on offer.

For me, as a football club, as a business, as a fan base, we need to cast aside notions of the untried and the untested. Yes it goes against the grain to be so closed minded, but this is effectively a 5 month project where, as our Chairman has already intimated, it could be won or lost in the January window.

Clearly on our budget there is no panacea out there, but there are those who fit this particular bill, whether we like it or not. I'm in strong agreement with Drew's comments further above - all things considered my vote would be for Terry Butcher (though for what it's worth Drew I strongly disagree on Murray at this juncture).

Spotlighting on TB. Mixed past? Yes. Recent failures? Most certainly. However to counter that he also has some admirable successes, is without doubt 'connected' within the game (which would hopefully bode well for the January window), and he knows the Scottish scene intimately. He is also out of work and desperate to restore his reputation after the Hibs debacle.

He wouldn't be my first choice under normal circumstances, but everything considered, I think the shoe fits.

[Bloomsbury Bud]

There's evidence that Longwell has done a good job, my fear is shuffling his position to become part of the first team setup might mean risking his success with the development team if the first team job came under pressure. To a certain extent, we've seen the drawback of dual responsibilities with Jim Goodwin putting pressure on his coaching role from his playing performances.

The ideal situation is Teale and Longwell succeeding, I just don't want to see Longwell weighed down with responsibility with both the development and first teams

[Drew]

Clearly on our budget there is no panacea out there, but there are those who fit this particular bill, whether we like it or not. I'm in strong agreement with Drew's comments further above - all things considered my vote would be for Terry Butcher (though for what it's worth Drew I strongly disagree on Murray at this juncture).

I can see where you're coming from here. I'm a bit torn, to be honest. If I had a crystal ball that told me we were going to take the drop, I'd have Murray. As we still have a realistic chance of staying up, Butcher might shade it for me, but in the longer term, I'd prefer Murray.

Not sure how much sense that makes. FFS, right enough, it seems like I've never been away!

Edited December 11, 2014 by Drew

[irvine_buddie]

Not singling you out Irvine, but 'time' is what we don't have.

There is a lot of the discussion on this thread from some, simply imho, who are looking at our current situation with an idealised view. I would normally be in full support of looking at the merits of in-house options of the likes of Teale, Thommo, and Longwell. I would also pit them against up and coming managers who are showing at least steady progress in the lower divisions. All standard stuff and, lets be honest, that's exactly the pond in which we fish.

However this is a very specific scenario we have here. 8 points from the first 15 games leaves us facing relegation. Looking at past history tells us that we will likely required something in the region of 38 points to be safe, vis, we probably need to achieve 30 points from the remaining 23 games. Just to underline this....

Under TC this squad managed 8 points from the available 45. That means we took 17.8% of the points on offer.

The probable requirement is for us to take 30 from the remaining 69. That means we need to take 43.5% of the points on offer.

For me, as a football club, as a business, as a fan base, we need to cast aside notions of the untried and the untested. Yes it goes against the grain to be so closed minded, but this is effectively a 5 month project where, as our Chairman has already intimated, it could be won or lost in the January window.

Clearly on our budget there is no panacea out there, but there are those who fit this particular bill, whether we like it or not. I'm in strong agreement with Drew's comments further above - all things considered my vote would be for Terry Butcher (though for what it's worth Drew I strongly disagree on Murray at this juncture).

Spotlighting on TB. Mixed past? Yes. Recent failures? Most certainly. However to counter that he also has some admirable successes, is without doubt 'connected' within the game (which would hopefully bode well for the January window), and he knows the Scottish scene intimately. He is also out of work and desperate to restore his reputation after the Hibs debacle.

He wouldn't be my first choice under normal circumstances, but everything considered, I think the shoe fits.

I do agree with you but there is as much chance of us getting the wrong man in and ending up relegated anyway. We have had a desperately bad season so far but we are actually not in that bad a situation due to Motherwell and Ross County being equally bad. It's not as if we are 5 or 6 points adrift, there is only 2 points between us and safety at the moment.

[Edinbuddie]

Our squad isn't great, and we've been woeful at times this season, but I haven't seen a great team in this league. We should be cast adrift already but, due to County & Well's similiar pishiness, we aren't.

We could do with a tall, strong central defender and a decent striker, but if we can get a bit of freshness, enthusiasm, energy and desire into the current squad, I think we could be ok with the squad we have.

[Wrong Planet]

I do agree with you but there is as much chance of us getting the wrong man in and ending up relegated anyway. We have had a desperately bad season so far but we are actually not in that bad a situation due to Motherwell and Ross County being equally bad. It's not as if we are 5 or 6 points adrift, there is only 2 points between us and safety at the moment.

I hear you Irvine. Only thing I would say is that on Sunday night we will still likely be on 8 points after our trip to Parkhead, and I actually fancy Motherwell for a home win on Saturday meaning we would then be 5 points from safety (10th), and a minimum of 8 points from 9th, a minimum of 12 points from 8th etc. If RC take anything we will be rock bottom by 5pm on Saturday!

OK, I concede that's all 'ifs, buts and maybes', guess all I'm saying, on balance, is that things are likely to be worse come Sunday tea time. The clock would be ticking ominously and the question remains the same, back a horse that's never been round the course, or back one that's done a few successful circuits. As long as we don't back a donkey!

[JM1]

I've said before my pick would be Murray, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't actually interested.

He has a reasonably comfortable job & might be thinking he would be in with a shout of a larger club like Dundee United or Aberdeen in the future.

It'll be a tough job for anyone tbh.

Edited December 11, 2014 by JM1

[El Gingero]

Yep that's a fair point as well Drew.

Murray was thrown in at the deep end with Dumbarton and has worked miracles ever since. They were expected to be relegated though and are a high end league one team, pretty much. Different for us, we are an established Prem team now and without the revenue that brings we would need to make major cut backs and sell our best players .

What miracles had Murray done?

[irvine_buddie]

I definitely wouldn't say Murray has worked miracles, he has done pretty well at best. Would much rather have Murray than Smith though.

[El Gingero]

Why?