Jack Ross Must Go.

[Lord Pityme]

1 hour ago, Edinbuddie said:

I'm quite interested in the highlighted bit above. Having spent all what money? I would've assumed that the changes we made would be largely cash neutral - one out and one in. How much have we spent and where did it go?

I know about the £8k from SMISA, the money from Naismith and McAllister, and would imagine that we would perhaps have had to pay the odd player (e.g. Calum Gallagher) a wee sweetener to get them off the books, but I don't imagine that would've been much. 

I'd also question the assertion that JR "spent all that money on short termism", as it's clearly not his decision on how much the club spends or the terms of the contracts. I would imagine that any decision on the scale of changes made to the playing squad (and any additional financial requirements) would be made through discussions with the BoD and Tony? JR decided that the squad he inherited needed major changes, and I'm not sure that too many fans would argue that. Given our position, it would be daft for us to offer long term deals on Championship wages when we'll need to clear the decks and start again should the worst happen.    

If you consider the club had to borrow £15k a week or so before Jack's Supermarket Sweep to fix the USH, that indicates they had nowt, and now you believe whatever came in for McAllister and Naismith is gone... does that not indicate a lot spent the club previously didn't have? ELEVEN new signings, who can all walk in 12 weeks...

if it works out for him and we stay up, all that cash is gone, will that be a sound return on investment to stay in the second tier of scottish football? Might the more measured approach have been to swap out say four players to get the key poositions sorted, and save most of the transfer income for the next season whichever league that is in???

remember Jack took the job and said the squad we had was good enough, now most of the players shipped out are playing for clubs in a better position than us..! 

Off to the Kingdom of Fife in a couple of days, hopefully we can be in the hat for the next round and get a decent home tie to put some money back into the club.

[Lord Pityme]

2 hours ago, DougJamie said:

U mean like Ross County do every year, except they don't sack the manager, they back him. So there is your answer

Aye but they have a multi millionaire to fund that, and the reward for a club to stay in the premiership is significant, its next to hee-haw difference if you stay in, or drop out the the second tier.

[paul torfason]

and ross county won more than 2 league games!!!!

[class of 76-77]

12 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

If you consider the club had to borrow £15k a week or so before Jack's Supermarket Sweep to fix the USH, that indicates they had nowt, and now you believe whatever came in for McAllister and Naismith is gone... does that not indicate a lot spent the club previously didn't have? ELEVEN new signings, who can all walk in 12 weeks...

if it works out for him and we stay up, all that cash is gone, will that be a sound return on investment to stay in the second tier of scottish football? Might the more measured approach have been to swap out say four players to get the key poositions sorted, and save most of the transfer income for the next season whichever league that is in???

remember Jack took the job and said the squad we had was good enough, now most of the players shipped out are playing for clubs in a better position than us..! 

Off to the Kingdom of Fife in a couple of days, hopefully we can be in the hat for the next round and get a decent home tie to put some money back into the club.

If Jack did say publicly that the squad was good enough then he was trying to get a reaction from them imo. Reality was that the squad he inherited were a shambles, just like the previous management team who assembled them. Sir Govan would have struggled to keep that team up such was the monumental mess Rae left behind. No matter who came in at the helm Jack Ross, Gus, Yogi or anyone else then they would all have wiped the slate clean and got shot of all the deadwood in similar fashion that Jack has. 

[Edinbuddie]

15 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

If you consider the club had to borrow £15k a week or so before Jack's Supermarket Sweep to fix the USH, that indicates they had nowt, and now you believe whatever came in for McAllister and Naismith is gone... does that not indicate a lot spent the club previously didn't have? ELEVEN new signings, who can all walk in 12 weeks...

if it works out for him and we stay up, all that cash is gone, will that be a sound return on investment to stay in the second tier of scottish football? Might the more measured approach have been to swap out say four players to get the key poositions sorted, and save most of the transfer income for the next season whichever league that is in???

remember Jack took the job and said the squad we had was good enough, now most of the players shipped out are playing for clubs in a better position than us..! 

Off to the Kingdom of Fife in a couple of days, hopefully we can be in the hat for the next round and get a decent home tie to put some money back into the club.

I don't believe whatever came in for McAllister is gone at all. If the SMISA £8K, and the Naismith & McAllister transfer fees had gone, that would mean (according to quoted transferred figures) we'd have spent around £250k to get 10 players in and 10 players out. That's a nonsense and clearly hasn't happened. It was you who made the assertion about Jack Ross "having spent all that money". I was asking what money and where did it go? Players are on wages, players leave, we no longer pay those wages. Players come in, we may pay them less in wages than the outgoing players? Ross County pay a small fee for Naismith, that could cover 1, 2, or 3 players wages for the rest of the season? All uncertainties, none of us know the actual answer and so aren't in a position to assert than anyone has spent "all that money".

Jack Ross had 3-4 months to go with Rae's squad. He talked them up and tried to build some confidence. Over time he obviously realised that many weren't good enough to get us out the current position, but he still he needed them to play for him so didn't/couldn't slaughter them in public. Which of the players, other than Naismith and McAllister, would the fans have been desperate to keep? I can't come up with one. In fact, I'd have had Webster and Irvine out of the door as well.     

 

   

[Lord Pityme]

9 minutes ago, class of 76-77 said:

If Jack did say publicly that the squad was good enough then he was trying to get a reaction from them imo. Reality was that the squad he inherited were a shambles, just like the previous management team who assembled them. Sir Govan would have struggled to keep that team up such was the monumental mess Rae left behind. No matter who came in at the helm Jack Ross, Gus, Yogi or anyone else then they would all have wiped the slate clean and got shot of all the deadwood in similar fashion that Jack has. 

Entitled to your opinion, it is an actual, as opposed to a alternative Fact that Rae kept us up with considerably less time and only a few changes last season, whilst Ross took Alloa down with a whimper. We hope his career achievements to date will show a positive this season!

[faraway saint]

13 minutes ago, class of 76-77 said:

If Jack did say publicly that the squad was good enough then he was trying to get a reaction from them imo. Reality was that the squad he inherited were a shambles, just like the previous management team who assembled them. Sir Govan would have struggled to keep that team up such was the monumental mess Rae left behind. No matter who came in at the helm Jack Ross, Gus, Yogi or anyone else then they would all have wiped the slate clean and got shot of all the deadwood in similar fashion that Jack has. 

I'm sure all the aforementioned managers would have wiped the slate clean but I believe they would have got more from the existing squad. After all, that's a managers job. PS Come to think of it almost anyone could have done better than Ross to date.

Edited February 9, 2017 by faraway saint

[Lord Pityme]

3 minutes ago, Edinbuddie said:

I don't believe whatever came in for McAllister is gone at all. If the SMISA £8K, and the Naismith & McAllister transfer fees had gone, that would mean (according to quoted transferred figures) we'd have spent around £250k to get 10 players in and 10 players out. That's a nonsense and clearly hasn't happened. It was you who made the assertion about Jack Ross "having spent all that money". I was asking what money and where did it go? Players are on wages, players leave, we no longer pay those wages. Players come in, we may pay them less in wages than the outgoing players? Ross County pay a small fee for Naismith, that could cover 1, 2, or 3 players wages for the rest of the season? All uncertainties, none of us know the actual answer and so aren't in a position to assert than anyone has spent "all that money".

Jack Ross had 3-4 months to go with Rae's squad. He talked them up and tried to build some confidence. Over time he obviously realised that many weren't good enough to get us out the current position, but he still he needed them to play for him so didn't/couldn't slaughter them in public. Which of the players, other than Naismith and McAllister, would the fans have been desperate to keep? I can't come up with one. In fact, I'd have had Webster and Irvine out of the door as well.     

 

   

I said that a lot has been spent, you suggested it had all been spent, i picked that up from your point.

now you want 13 new players in..? Why not go for 15, or 20..?

regardless of how each of us see it, we have a manager who many now state they didnt want changing his first team in January, spending more wages on the likes of McGinn, Davies etc and perhaps a few getting a wee pay off, in one very big gamble to try and achieve more than the two wins he has managed this season.

and that bud is the big test, if we draw the next seven games we will most likely be further off Ayr, if we lose three of those games we are gone, if we win five its possible... the bugger is it will probably be March before we know if we still have a realistic chance!

[Edinbuddie]

Sorry for not making myself clearer. I suggested that it was more likely to be nearer a cost neutral option than the club having spent "all that money".

Rae' squad was a disaster. He talked last season about signing his own players in the summer. Well, he showed a lack of imagination by signing many that he'd had last season and didn't sign a leader on the park. We've suffered for that all season long.

[John Gotti]

Had Jack Ross been brought in during the summer he would have been fired by now as his record is simply not good enough however Tom Hendrie would also have been sacked after Morton pumped us 5-1 at Love Street had he not been a newish manager.

TH went onto become a very good manager for us and hopefully Jack can do the same but he needs to start delivering now, he has had plenty of time, he has been allowed to bring in an entire new team. There can be no more excuses!

[ged62]

I wonder if I will do a wee stint in the Shull Bin if I tell all negative posters to go jump......................

Tell us the positives first [emoji6]

[DougJamie]

Just now, ged62 said:

Tell us the positives first

Easy

 

We are, last time I looked STILL a Championship team

We are Still in 2 other  cups

We have a win rate of 90% in Cups this season

The old BOD has gone, as has AR, TC and IM....

We have already beaten Dundee and Hibs away this season, so we can beat anyone in this league

We have far more options now after a good Jan window

Jack Ross is potentially a great manager, and was very highly rated by a successful Hearts team, the same Hearts that didn't rate Locke

We were below bottom before GS and JR came in

We have a BOD that obviously backs the team and the future

I am St Mirren till I die, if I wanted an easy life I could always kid on I support Celtic

If you want anymore happy to oblige or alternatively call the The Samaritans

 

 

[Lord Pityme]

1 hour ago, Edinbuddie said:

Sorry for not making myself clearer. I suggested that it was more likely to be nearer a cost neutral option than the club having spent "all that money".

Rae' squad was a disaster. He talked last season about signing his own players in the summer. Well, he showed a lack of imagination by signing many that he'd had last season and didn't sign a leader on the park. We've suffered for that all season long.

Most posters on here were happy with Rae's signings in the summer and fancied that squad could be competitive in this league. There were no loud dissenting voices last August, indeed quite the opposite!

[Lord Pityme]

52 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

Easy

 

We are, last time I looked STILL a Championship team

We are Still in 2 other  cups

We have a win rate of 90% in Cups this season

The old BOD has gone, as has AR, TC and IM....

We have already beaten Dundee and Hibs away this season, so we can beat anyone in this league

We have far more options now after a good Jan window

Jack Ross is potentially a great manager, and was very highly rated by a successful Hearts team, the same Hearts that didn't rate Locke

We were below bottom before GS and JR came in

We have a BOD that obviously backs the team and the future

I am St Mirren till I die, if I wanted an easy life I could always kid on I support Celtic

If you want anymore happy to oblige or alternatively call the The Samaritans

 

 

Jack Ross left Hearts on far from amicable terms. The rest of your points are positive.

[stlucifer]

2 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Most posters on here were happy with Rae's signings in the summer and fancied that squad could be competitive in this league. There were no loud dissenting voices last August, indeed quite the opposite!

And many were saying it was imbalanced. It was expected he would address that. While I know Sutton has scored goals, his position was filled. We knew we were desperate for a left back and a strong holding midfielder as well as a central defender worthy of the title. As time ebbed away it was clear those positions were remaining unfilled and the doubts arose.

[DougJamie]

8 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Jack Ross left Hearts on far from amicable terms. The rest of your points are positive.

Maybe but they still rated him  they knew Locke ( as we all did) was a fanny..........

 

Welcome to the Bright Side  

 

Not the " oh dearie me , choose relegation not life" side

 

 

[Edinbuddie]

Most posters on here were happy with Rae's signings in the summer and fancied that squad could be competitive in this league. There were no loud dissenting voices last August, indeed quite the opposite!

I think that most posters tend to support the manager and players that they have at that time. That supportive mindset is clearly not universal.

I get your message though - Jack Ross is bad.

[Lord Pityme]

33 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

And many were saying it was imbalanced. It was expected he would address that. While I know Sutton has scored goals, his position was filled. We knew we were desperate for a left back and a strong holding midfielder as well as a central defender worthy of the title. As time ebbed away it was clear those positions were remaining unfilled and the doubts arose.

Other than the left back, aye, but most on here didnt pipe up at Webster, Baird, Mckenzie at CB and Hutton & Quinn as holding midfielders. Indeed most on here thought it was a good squad. It lost one, won three or four cup games, drew three, lost three league games. Add to that how the spine of it performed backend of last season... you have to ask why Ross couldnt get those results out of it?

[Lord Pityme]

19 minutes ago, Edinbuddie said:

I think that most posters tend to support the manager and players that they have at that time. That supportive mindset is clearly not universal.

I get your message though - Jack Ross is bad.

 

I dont think he is bad, i think he is and has been out of his depth. Too many changes to line up and formation, when all we needed was to win ugly. I believe he thought it would be straightforward to get a decent season under his belt, and have a proper go next season. That to me shows his lack of experience, or even the mindset to learn from those who do/have done it dirty & ugly before.

maybe he will learn?

[stlucifer]

37 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Other than the left back, aye, but most on here didn't pipe up at Webster, Baird, Mckenzie at CB and Hutton & Quinn as holding midfielders. Indeed most on here thought it was a good squad. It lost one, won three or four cup games, drew three, lost three league games. Add to that how the spine of it performed backend of last season... you have to ask why Ross couldnt get those results out of it?

There were a lot of people dismayed at JG's departure and had to be convinced Quinn was the answer. He might well have been had he not been ravaged by injury. This was obvious very early on. I'm not sure I read anything about Hutton being the answer. There was also a lot of murmurs about Baird being suspect and Webster being slow. McKenzies was one I had hope for, maybe still have, but , again, injuries are jinxing his impact. It did seem a good set of players on paper but definitely not balanced in many eyes.

[East Lothian Saint]

45 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

 

maybe he will learn?

Only if we give him the chance   

[Russian Saint]

Most posters on here were happy with Rae's signings in the summer and fancied that squad could be competitive in this league. There were no loud dissenting voices last August, indeed quite the opposite!

I'm one of those that thought we had a squad that would be top four material at the start of this campaign.

[norrie82]

On 07/02/2017 at 0:57 PM, YardleyBoom said:

Don't understand all the negativity towards Ross. He has come into a shambles, cleared out all of Rae's hopeless signings, brought in 10 new players who to me all look like decent signings and on Saturday, although we ended up drawing, it is the most passion and quality I have seen from our team in a long time. It was the way it should be when we visit away grounds like Dumbarton. The home team should be working their socks off to keep up with us rather than the all too many easy home wins for teams when we visit. Our goalkeeper looks like a Fraser Forster type, Davis looks like a classy centre half who got a goal on his debut, Storie is exactly what we've needed since goodwin left a pitbull type on opposition players heels and a strong tackler, McGinn has the experience to lead and help the midfield control things and Cammy Smith was a stand out going forward and could be the difference in many games going forward. It is also the most passion ive seen from our fans in a long time even to the point they were cheering and clapping the team off the pitch at the end. Yes it looks like we will go down but I believe Jack Ross and his fresh line up of players will show that he is the right man for the job, even if that job is to bring us back up from the league below.

 

Can you imagine our squad next year. I doubt Aberdeen etc will loan you a player for league one when they can play in the championship.  It's going to be horrible if we drop. We Will have a team of mark Crilly like pros and a very young spine I'd imagine.  No guarantee we will romp it. It's important that this lot sort themselves out. It's absolutely disgraceful that this club has won two games in league football since April 2016.  Absolutely disgusting in fact. Regardless of raes squad they were still alot better than what they have produced.  Two wins since april.  Unbelievable jeff

Edited February 9, 2017 by norrie82

[John Gotti]

18 minutes ago, norrie82 said:

Can you imagine our squad next year. I doubt Aberdeen etc will loan you a player for league one when they can play in the championship.  It's going to be horrible if we drop. We Will have a team of mark Crilly like pros and a very young spine I'd imagine.  No guarantee we will romp it. It's important that this lot sort themselves out. It's absolutely disgraceful that this club has won two games in league football since April 2016.  Absolutely disgusting in fact. Regardless of raes squad they were still alot better than what they have produced.  Two wins since april.  Unbelievable jeff

Next season could end up with us having low end full time players up against upper level part time players. Regardless of who the manager is I agree it won't be a romp.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

On 2/7/2017 at 0:57 PM, YardleyBoom said:

Don't understand all the negativity towards Ross. He has come into a shambles, cleared out all of Rae's hopeless signings, brought in 10 new players who to me all look like decent signings and on Saturday, although we ended up drawing, it is the most passion and quality I have seen from our team in a long time. It was the way it should be when we visit away grounds like Dumbarton. The home team should be working their socks off to keep up with us rather than the all too many easy home wins for teams when we visit. Our goalkeeper looks like a Fraser Forster type, Davis looks like a classy centre half who got a goal on his debut, Storie is exactly what we've needed since goodwin left a pitbull type on opposition players heels and a strong tackler, McGinn has the experience to lead and help the midfield control things and Cammy Smith was a stand out going forward and could be the difference in many games going forward. It is also the most passion ive seen from our fans in a long time even to the point they were cheering and clapping the team off the pitch at the end. Yes it looks like we will go down but I believe Jack Ross and his fresh line up of players will show that he is the right man for the job, even if that job is to bring us back up from the league below.

 

I salute your optimism. Ross hasn't cleared out all of Rae's hopeless signing. Many of the players going out the door, or in Mallan's case almost going out the door, were some of our better players in the squad: Naismith moved up a league to SPL midtable team Ross County, Scott Gallacher moved to Hibs, Shankland moved to 3rd placed Morton, Ryan Hardie went to Raith Rovers, Calum Gallacher went to Dumbarton and Kyle McAllister was sold for £200-500k to Derby County. Of Rae's hopeless signings only Kyle Hutton has dropped down a league to Airdrie until the summer (who might pass us on our way down) and Tom Walsh is without a club after leaving Rangers. Most of Rae's "hopeless signings" have signed elsewhere at our level or better.

Storie may have a bit of dig about him but his distribution can be very hit and miss - not much point in winning the ball is a smashing tackle if you give it away again at your first attempt to pass. O 'Brien looks a bit raw and prone to rushes of blood to the head, Harry Davis didn't look brilliant against Nade on Saturday or for Dumbarton's first goal, Fjelde isn't a full back but still got 2 starts ahead of Demerteriou who is... time will tell whether Jack Ross has unearthed 11 bargain basement gems out of 11 signings in January. If 5 or 6 work out pretty well and he can utilise them alongside guys who did OK before the transfer window (Baird, MacKenzie, Magennis, Sutton and possibly Morgan and Mallan at a stretch) then we might pick up more points in the next 10 games than in the previous 10.